More media - an alternative view

[droid]

One of my main tenets on the web, is not to say anything on line I wouldn't say face to face.

Other's mileage might differ. Someone calls me a liar to my face and they get a reaction, not necessarily the one they anticipate.

Your comment RE Linda's piece is entirely valid.

 

[paul]

[gmod]Either stick to reasoned argument and stop the personal bickering or, as on other occasions, this thread will be locked.[/gmod]

 

[badger]

the bickering is very tiresome.
sometimes in this world we all have to agree to disagree
regardless to peoples views and whether we agree with them or not things should stay civil and respectful.
I personally disagree with a lot of the lets say cautious crow people, some more than others I think have been quite antagonistic.
as is some of the pro crow people have been quite aggressive
at the end of the day these people are always going to disagree
personally I would like Badlad/Pegasus to lock all crow debates anytime one is started unless by badlad as information, and to be fair has always posted negative articles as well

 

[droid]

Calling people liars and tricksters is hardly civil or respectful.

Since being taken off pre-mod, I have tried to be reasonable. That will continue forthwith.

But I'm not letting puerile accusations like that lie....

 

[royfellows]

I may as well post this here as anywhere.

The mining exploration and history community desperately needs new, younger people. To my mind, the logical place to look was the caving community, hence my involvement with CCC, registering to this site, etc.

From what I am seeing, I am having second thoughts.

 

[Brains]

I may as well post this here as anywhere.

The mining exploration and history community desperately needs new, younger people. To my mind, the logical place to look was the caving community, hence my involvement with CCC, registering to this site, etc.

From what I am seeing, I am having second thoughts.

I am not "younger people" but I have a great interest in mines and mine exploration - it is what fired my enthusiasm and carried on my interest through the years. Sadly many out and out cavers find mines dirty gritty unpleasent places with no interest for them. Geologists, historians, and other types seem to show much greater affinity. Once my current health picks up and life allows I hope to delve in mines that are new and puzzling to me - I may even get a new wetsuit!  So much better than bickering over the endless politics that gets in the way of going underground. I am sure I am suffering from a lack of radon and cave/mine water bathing - it is making me irritable and erroding my tolerance. I must do better... Better times will come

 

[NewStuff]

And naming people, whether me or not, when the person doing it  cries to mummy whenever he is named here. Utter hypocrisy. At least I will respect his wish not to be named, but even so, more and more people do know who he is.

Given that the people in question are all able to use their own names quite freely, you're doing that apples and oranges thing again. I can't, it's not something I have a choice in either. If you all want to meet and mutter my name in a room, have at it, my employer's policy doesn't cover that.

Now, back to the topic at hand.

Are there any concerns that have *not* been discussed here that are raised on that other site? Valid ones, not "might someday happen if all the planets and moons are in alignment".

 

[jasonbirder]

the broad-brush labelling of *anyone* not following the 'CRoW as caving Nirvana' line as liars and tricksters

No-one really wants to see this...I've been as guilty as anyone of posting in the heat of the moment...but over-all I would try and say here what I'd say in the pub or the hut!

BUT surely the major issue and the reason for the bickering and heated emotions...is that here we are - a year after the CRoW referendum and in one corner we have people ranging from those still debating it...urging caution, discussion and debate to those who ARE using "dirty tricks" (I don't thinks its unfair to call using administrative protocols and beauracratic nuances to try and halt a democratically mandated decision "dirty tricks")

The time for debate is OVER...that horse has bolted...both sides made their argument...put forward the pro's of their case and pointed out the holes in their opponents - it was then subject to an inclusive and honourable referendum and a decision arose...

Its time for everyone to get behind that decision...and to support the actions that need to be made...there really is NO alternative...for the BCA not to follow through with its push to ensure CRoW is recognised after such a decisive vote would ridicule its role as the representative of UK Caving...and call its whole existence into question...

If the vote had gone against CRoW - we'd have had to suck it up...and those that felt strongly enough would have had to take their campaign outside the BCA...

The same applies...anti's need to accept the wish of the members...if there are those still involved with the BCA that can't do that...fair enough...but take your rearguard action against YOUR OWN members outside the BCA...it seems wrong in the extreme that you can be vocally anti-CRoW and still able to vote on the Council or be a member of any committee when the members voted FOR and want to see action FOR CRoW access

It would be like being a UKIP MEP and campaigning in favour of voting YES in the Euro-referendum

 

[Pegasus]

I may as well post this here as anywhere.

The mining exploration and history community desperately needs new, younger people. To my mind, the logical place to look was the caving community, hence my involvement with CCC, registering to this site, etc.

From what I am seeing, I am having second thoughts.

Please don't have second thoughts, Roy.  UKC are actively trying to support and encourage younger cavers - plans are afoot for CHECC 2016 for example.  Ok so the past few days has seen some heated debate, however over the past couple of years, the atmosphere on UKC has improved greatly and the site is busier than ever.

Cheers, Jane

 

[droid]

Jason: the time for debate is *never* over.

Debating potential problems (including those the pro's might have had sorted before the referendum) is legitimate. Debate on a forum or through the media isn't going to stop the campaign going forward. It might however, give those driving the Campaign food for thought. Or not.

Trying to stifle debate is the antithesis of 'democracy'.

 

[Pitlamp]

I may as well post this here as anywhere.

The mining exploration and history community desperately needs new, younger people. To my mind, the logical place to look was the caving community, hence my involvement with CCC, registering to this site, etc.

From what I am seeing, I am having second thoughts.

Please don't have second thoughts, Roy.  UKC are actively trying to support and encourage younger cavers - plans are afoot for CHECC 2016 for example.  Ok so the past few days has seen some heated debate, however over the past couple of years, the atmosphere on UKC has improved greatly and the site is busier than ever.

Cheers, Jane

In support of the sentiments that Pegasus expressed here, the past couple of days has also seen some valuable contributions from various angles, all of which are worth considering. I don't personally agree with some but they've been well expressed and they made me think carefully. Surely this is a positive thing?

 

[Pitlamp]

. . .  in fact, although Badlad and I have somewhat differing opinions on the CRoW situation we've just exchanged very civil PMs via this forum.

It really is possible to disagree with someone without falling out in any way.
We cavers have so much in common; if more folk could express opinions in a friendly way we'd all be better off.

I've enjoyed reading Roy Fellows' valuable posts and I hope he continues to contribute.

 

[droid]

Another of my tenets for forums is that it is possible to argue vehemently without becoming mortal enemies.

Well said Pitlamp.

 

[Brains]

In the interests of fairness and completness, some more from Darkness Below
http://darknessbelow.co.uk/?p=1603

 

[droid]

And still nothing from the pro-CRoW lobby?

 

[TomTom]

As requested...

 

[Brains]

And still nothing from the pro-CRoW lobby?

What would you like?

 

[droid]

A riposte to the allegedly (by you) fact-free article on DB.

There's been several general requests.....

 

[Brains]

Which article in particular would like a riposte upon - ther have been many, and my opinion of them varies.
I have made many comments (perhaps far too many!  )
Editorials are an expression of opinion - nowt wrong with that of course. Other articles are more reports on events

 

[Peter Burgess]

Some more media... "Darkness Below" has published an editorial by Linda Wilson, essentially the BCA should ignore the referendum and return to rolling over in front of the landowners, all resistance is futile and no progress will ever be made...

This is largely a report of various published queries and the published responses to them. Only at the end is there any opinion expressed. It is therefore largely a NEWS item with a view appended. But let's call it an "editorial" then we can ignore the whole thing as a bit of propaganda.