More thoughts on Eldon hole

[Speleotron]

How do we know the map drawn in 17something showing the continuation of Eldon and the streamway is truthfull ( I really want it to be!)? Because if the other shafts, chambers and streamway were there, when various people filled the hole in wouldnt the rubble go all the way down into the streamway? What I meen is, either there was huge amount of rubble thrown in (people say a couple of walls but it must be more) so that it fills in the whole thing down to the streamway, but if that's the case judging by the scale of the old map this would be an unrealistic amount of stuff? Or maybe the lower stuff is clear of rubble and either its all jammed up somewhere or theres a horizontal bit that it couldnt get past?

 

[Pipster]

How do we know the map drawn in 17something showing the continuation of Eldon and the streamway is truthfull ( I really want it to be!)?

I suppose we don't. How about this question: What would be gained from lying? Did Lloyd write about anything else that can be validated? Plumbtrees account of the Speedwell/JH was proved to be true

either there was huge amount of rubble thrown in (people say a couple of walls but it must be more)

what if they were 6ft hight walls? How thick? How may walls have been thrown in? It's suggested 2, but could it be 3 or 4 or more? Could rocks have been purposefully dumped from other sources (it wouldn't be the first time)? Has the northen gully shed rocks in the past?

Because if the other shafts, chambers and streamway were there, when various people filled the hole in wouldnt the rubble go all the way down into the streamway?

Possibly - only one way to find out

judging by the scale of the old map

I don't think the diagram is to scale to be honest.

maybe the lower stuff is clear of rubble and either its all jammed up somewhere or theres a horizontal bit that it couldnt get past?

Maybe - only one way to find out

If you forget about the sketch; would you still think that something else is down there? I do!

 

[graham]

The quote about walls being thrown in comes from Rooke Pennington's Barrows and Bone Caves of Derbyshire page 110

The farmer told me that during his time two or three walls had disappeared and been replaced; no doubt it had been the same in the times of his predecessors.

That was published in 1877 well after the description of the lower shaft etc.

 

[Brains]

Seem to remember hearing that a couple of men were emplyed for a year or two barrowing rubble to the hole in an attempt to fill it...

 

[AndyF]

Seem to remember hearing that a couple of men were emplyed for a year or two barrowing rubble to the hole in an attempt to fill it...

I don't buy into that story... what would be gained? A quarter of an acre of uplane sheep pasture.... not worth two mens wages for a year....  And the Peaks was brimming with assorted open mine shafts, rakes and quarries at the time, hundreds of them, why fill this hole in?

It makes no sense IMHO

 

[Brains]

Does seem rather pointless - do you know the origin of the tale though?

 

[Mrs Trellis]

It always seemed to me to be unlikely that the fill came only from walling stone - which by definition can be man-handled - or by rocks casually chucked down by walkers and the like.

I wouldn't be surprised if some mine waste wasn't tipped down there by t'owd man or a farmer afraid of bellanding.

 

[AndyF]

Does seem rather pointless - do you know the origin of the tale though?

No sorry, don't know the origin...

 

[graham]

It always seemed to me to be unlikely that the fill came only from walling stone - which by definition can be man-handled - or by rocks casually chucked down by walkers and the like.

I wouldn't be surprised if some mine waste wasn't tipped down there by t'owd man or a farmer afraid of bellanding.

I'd be very surprised if mine waste had been tipped down there, that would have been a completely unnecessary expense from a miner's point of view.

Similarly, the farmers will have been aware of the dangers inherent in carrying polluted waste across unpolluted hillsides, I would think.

 

[DAN]

I do not think the miners would have spoil anywhere, they would just tip it at the shaft head. That would be far to much work and expense. If someone can get permission (very doutful ) I will sort the logistics for the project.

 

[robjones]

Why not get a geologist to examine samples from various depths from the various shafts that have been sunk into the infill, and to compare their lithologies to the pothole walls and to local outcrops. If the lithologies are sufficiently distinctive, some interesting clues to the origin of the infill might be obtained.

There may be some costs to getting some material thin-sectioned for microscopic examination.

 

[SamT]

How do we know the map drawn in 17something showing the continuation of Eldon and the streamway is truthfull ( I really want it to be!)?

No its not. Well - its surmised.

Reading the Account, its clear that Lloyd did not find that continuation. Both he and King spoke to locals who talked of it - not even T'owd man but a miners wife...

Ahhhh f*** it - read it yourself here.. I'll leave it up for a few days..

Eldon Hole Lloyds Shaft Small

 

[Brains]

So there we have perhaps the origin of the men tipping stones story.
I think it is also clear that many of t'owd man had been down the shaft prior to the visit by Lloyd, but being illiterate and poor they didn't count!
The account does seem to hold true as a general description of what is known today, so is not fiction. The presence of a shaft to water can I think therefore be believed.

 

[graham]

Figure 1 F?

 

[Pipster]

How do we know the map drawn in 17something showing the continuation of Eldon and the streamway is truthfull ( I really want it to be!)?

read it yourself here.. I'll leave it up for a few days..
Eldon Hole Lloyds Shaft Small

Thanks for posting this SamT - an interesting read 

 

[Roger W]

Interesting about the old lady's goose.  No mention here of singed feathers!