Mossdale caverns?
- Thread starter Simon Beck
- Start date
Simon Beck
Member
Descent , no:180, 4th page from the rear, definitely a recent(last decade from the eqipment he's wearing) picture.
cap n chris
Well-known member
On the subject of photos, anyone else see p.18 in latest Descent (182) about the Panama cave rescue of a caiman alligator. The man and boy ("thirty years, hardest game in the world") with the alligator on a pole are kitted out better than most people I see in this country. Harnesses, LED lights and Petzl Elios helmets.
Oh, and Jenny Pinder on the front cover has got three feet.
Oh, and Jenny Pinder on the front cover has got three feet.
Cumbrian Neil
Member
I don't think this thread is going the way Simon intended it to go. Sadly, too many assumptions have been made and now it is heading down a path I have no desire to follow. I will continue to give fellow cavers suggestions and recommendations with respect to areas of the Dales that I have knowledge of. I would also hope that they are taken in good faith and not intended to attack people's egos or question the credibility of their "caving curriculum vitae."
I understand that cavers will choose to cave where they want to cave and they will calculate the risks of their actions accordingly. Those choices vary amongst all members of the caving community. I have been forced to spend the night in the high level passages of the Sacred Way while water levels droped in the boulder chokes below the Nemesis Pitch in Langcliffe... shit happens when you least expect it.
Cavewidow - Join a club... CPC, BPC, and RRCPC are all good clubs who will be able to mold you into a caver. Caving is a wonderful sport with many wonderful characters.
George North - We should meet over a pint someday!
Simon - I read/heard of an interesting story that suggested that Syphon Passage had reversed its flow of water... the hydrology of Mosedale has changed somewhat over the past few years. In my opinion, the WRCPC will eventually gain access to the Great Scar Limestone via digs in High Swinber or Gill House Pot. They have legal access to both sites... you should get in touch with them.
Let's keep this forum to caving related talk... it's an encyclopedia of caving knowledge, not an almanac of "who's who." Why can't we be friends!!
Yours,
CN.
I understand that cavers will choose to cave where they want to cave and they will calculate the risks of their actions accordingly. Those choices vary amongst all members of the caving community. I have been forced to spend the night in the high level passages of the Sacred Way while water levels droped in the boulder chokes below the Nemesis Pitch in Langcliffe... shit happens when you least expect it.
Cavewidow - Join a club... CPC, BPC, and RRCPC are all good clubs who will be able to mold you into a caver. Caving is a wonderful sport with many wonderful characters.
George North - We should meet over a pint someday!
Simon - I read/heard of an interesting story that suggested that Syphon Passage had reversed its flow of water... the hydrology of Mosedale has changed somewhat over the past few years. In my opinion, the WRCPC will eventually gain access to the Great Scar Limestone via digs in High Swinber or Gill House Pot. They have legal access to both sites... you should get in touch with them.
Let's keep this forum to caving related talk... it's an encyclopedia of caving knowledge, not an almanac of "who's who." Why can't we be friends!!
Yours,
CN.
bubba
Administrator
Out of interest, who was it that decreed that Mossdale should be sealed off and remain as a tomb?
The reason I ask is that I find it highly unlikely that that would have been the wishes of those who died there.
In my personal opinion, I would have thought it better to allow access using permits, rather than to have people entering the system "illegally" (if it is indeed actually illegal) where they may be loathe to call in help if they got into difficulties.
Couldn't just the area where the poor people are buried remain off limits? I've been to Moss Chamber in Peak and didn't feel that I was showing any disrespect to Neil Moss or his memory just by being there.
The reason I ask is that I find it highly unlikely that that would have been the wishes of those who died there.
In my personal opinion, I would have thought it better to allow access using permits, rather than to have people entering the system "illegally" (if it is indeed actually illegal) where they may be loathe to call in help if they got into difficulties.
Couldn't just the area where the poor people are buried remain off limits? I've been to Moss Chamber in Peak and didn't feel that I was showing any disrespect to Neil Moss or his memory just by being there.
G
George North
Guest
I think it was the police who had it sealed. I'm pretty sure ULSA were fairly strongly against it though. Have a look at the ULSA journals from the time for more info.
Simon Beck
Member
hey Neil!
I'd really like to hear more about your impromptu bivouac in the 'sacred way' of Langcliffe pot.
I'd really like to hear more about your impromptu bivouac in the 'sacred way' of Langcliffe pot.
Cumbrian Neil
Member
Who closed it? Both ULSA Journal 2 and Race Against Time suggest that the Coroner's Office made the determination to seal the cave. But those "concrete" (sorry for the pun) measures were removed in the three years following the tragedy. ULSA went in, buried the bodies of their friends, and continued exploration.
The access problem with Langcliffe and Mossdale is that the resurgence, Black Keld, is also the water supply for the farm it is located on. The farmer had contaminated water for some time after the Brook Brothers and ULSA were "rescued" from Langcliffe. Obviously, anything decomposing in a cave system will also contaminate the water source. It is the farmer who is the one against, and controls, any access to the systems on the fell (the guidebook indicates someone else other than the farmer).
I have been into Langcliffe on three occasions. The first time we went in through the Langcliffe Pot entrance and battled with the tangle of telephone wires in the Craven Crawl... on that occasion we navigated as far as Boireau Falls Chamber, but I wasn't overly commited to the constricted squeeze down into the passage above the Nemesis pitch. We ate a soggy sandwich and exited the system.
The second time we used the Oddmire entrance and found this to be a much easier option and far less strenuous in nature. On this trip I commited myself to the squeeze and found ourselves navigating both boulder chokes at the base of the Nemesis Pitch.... once passed, it is an easy slog to the Sacred Way and eventually, the Fearnought Streamway. You are a very long way from the surface at this point. It is a long slog out!
On the third occasion, we were guiding some cavers from Derbyshire into the system... it wasn't forecast to rain, but while we were underground it did!! We made rapid progress through the cave until we reached the boulder chokes... the choke does move periodically and the route through isn't the same twice... or at least that's what we found. A few boulders did need to be moved to regain the route through the choke. On the return from the end of the cave we found the water to be literally "spraying" from the second boulder choke and essentially blocking the way out :shock: . It was cool to see apart from we were on the wrong side of it. We returned to the dry chambers of the Sacred Way and slept in sleeping bags left by ULSA at their abandoned camp. Six hours later the water levels had dropped sufficently to allow us an exit... but it was still pretty wet. We exited the cave 24 hours after we had entered it and a call out was an hour off!!
There are lessons to be learned through my little tale. We always entered the system under the cover of darkness and always watched the weather forecast. My trips into Langcliffe occured in 1991 and 1992 (I was 21 and full of piss and vinegar). The cave has HUGE potential, but getting to the end is a challenge and the entire cave is dark and ominous. I wish that we did not need to enter the cave without permission, but we did and we justified it in the way cavers do. We went there because we though we would be the ones who would find a way on... now I believe the way on is from the bottom up or through digs.
Yours,
CN.
PS. I had my appendix out on Friday night and have been wandering the Internet instead of going to work - I found this Letter while wandering. Sadly, if you are in this game long enough you will be able to relate to it!
The access problem with Langcliffe and Mossdale is that the resurgence, Black Keld, is also the water supply for the farm it is located on. The farmer had contaminated water for some time after the Brook Brothers and ULSA were "rescued" from Langcliffe. Obviously, anything decomposing in a cave system will also contaminate the water source. It is the farmer who is the one against, and controls, any access to the systems on the fell (the guidebook indicates someone else other than the farmer).
I have been into Langcliffe on three occasions. The first time we went in through the Langcliffe Pot entrance and battled with the tangle of telephone wires in the Craven Crawl... on that occasion we navigated as far as Boireau Falls Chamber, but I wasn't overly commited to the constricted squeeze down into the passage above the Nemesis pitch. We ate a soggy sandwich and exited the system.
The second time we used the Oddmire entrance and found this to be a much easier option and far less strenuous in nature. On this trip I commited myself to the squeeze and found ourselves navigating both boulder chokes at the base of the Nemesis Pitch.... once passed, it is an easy slog to the Sacred Way and eventually, the Fearnought Streamway. You are a very long way from the surface at this point. It is a long slog out!
On the third occasion, we were guiding some cavers from Derbyshire into the system... it wasn't forecast to rain, but while we were underground it did!! We made rapid progress through the cave until we reached the boulder chokes... the choke does move periodically and the route through isn't the same twice... or at least that's what we found. A few boulders did need to be moved to regain the route through the choke. On the return from the end of the cave we found the water to be literally "spraying" from the second boulder choke and essentially blocking the way out :shock: . It was cool to see apart from we were on the wrong side of it. We returned to the dry chambers of the Sacred Way and slept in sleeping bags left by ULSA at their abandoned camp. Six hours later the water levels had dropped sufficently to allow us an exit... but it was still pretty wet. We exited the cave 24 hours after we had entered it and a call out was an hour off!!
There are lessons to be learned through my little tale. We always entered the system under the cover of darkness and always watched the weather forecast. My trips into Langcliffe occured in 1991 and 1992 (I was 21 and full of piss and vinegar). The cave has HUGE potential, but getting to the end is a challenge and the entire cave is dark and ominous. I wish that we did not need to enter the cave without permission, but we did and we justified it in the way cavers do. We went there because we though we would be the ones who would find a way on... now I believe the way on is from the bottom up or through digs.
Yours,
CN.
PS. I had my appendix out on Friday night and have been wandering the Internet instead of going to work - I found this Letter while wandering. Sadly, if you are in this game long enough you will be able to relate to it!
Simon Beck
Member
Much respect neil! (uupppps)
Later in the year Cavegod?, get yourself down here sooner than that and i'll go in with ya!, i only live a few miles away.
Later in the year Cavegod?, get yourself down here sooner than that and i'll go in with ya!, i only live a few miles away.
Cumbrian Neil
Member
SIMON BECK said:
Who's Ian??
D
diggerdog adam
Guest
C.N
That letter brings it home as a parent !
That letter brings it home as a parent !
Cumbrian Neil
Member
Diggerdog Adam - It certainly does bring a little different light onto the subject of mortality in the sport we pursue. Last October I finally got the nerve up to write a letter to the parents of a friend who lost his life down "Old Ing" ten years ago. They were happy to hear from me and thanked me for contacting them. I think knowing that his old caving friends still talked about him was enough to relieve some of the sadness related to his death. It's a unforgiving sport, but death is normally a rare event.
Simon - Thank you for the comment. I also have a tale of being hung up on the entrance pitch of Strans Gill below the tight bit... but we won't go there on this occasion. It appears from some of your other postings on this forum that you like to read. So, on the topic of Grassington Moor, have you ever read the "Leakey Tapes"?
CN.
Simon - Thank you for the comment. I also have a tale of being hung up on the entrance pitch of Strans Gill below the tight bit... but we won't go there on this occasion. It appears from some of your other postings on this forum that you like to read. So, on the topic of Grassington Moor, have you ever read the "Leakey Tapes"?
CN.
Simon Beck
Member
Obviously i've heard of Bob leakey, but have not read the 'leakey tapes', but i sure would love to!, definitely one of the pioneers.
T
tiggs
Guest
Yeah it does but surely youre better to fill a childs life with excitement and adventure, than to wrap them up in cotton wool and keep em out of harms way. A short full life has gotta be better than a long, boring one, life is there for living, you only get one crack at it.
It is extremely sad for those who died and it must be devastating to be the ones left behind, but not reason enough to stop everyone else going to the same places n trying to do the same things
Cumbrian Neil
Member
Dunc said:
Leakey was the original "hard" caver in the pre-wetsuit days... I can't imagine what he would have accomplished if he had the gear we have today!! For those interested, "The Leakey Tapes" were written by Mike Boon (another hard caver) published in Descent issues 92 & 93. Historically, Leakey was the first to enter the Mossdale system in 1941.
CN.
** There were actually four parts to the Leakey Tapes and were included in Descent issues 92, 93, 94, & 96. I realised my error when I went to reread them.
