Mossdale caverns?
- Thread starter Simon Beck
- Start date
Cumbrian Neil
Member
Armchair said:
Is it still in print... or can you still acquire a copy anywhere??
CN.
A
Andy Kay
Guest
An interesting discussion about a cave I've never been to (and have no intention of visiting either. Living in France, I have any amount of desperate dangerous caves to enjoy!) Probably the fullest account of the Mossdale tragedy is to be found in "Race Against Time" by Jim Eyre & John Frankland (Lyon Books, probably out of print). Personally I feel that not continuing the exploration of the place because of the accident is a mistake, though of course the area where the victims' bodies were buried should remain off-limits. If the death of an explorer were a valid reason for stopping further exploration, many of the world's great cave systems would have remained undiscovered. However, as with all caving activity, the rights and wishes of the landowner should be respected, even if in this case I would suspect their motivation is more based on financial and insurance issues rather than some humanitarian emotion....
Just to get back to George's original response to this - if access is denied then I hope ULSA and all those who appear to be going down Mossdale from reading these postings have special permission from the landowner. If not then how would you like it if someone turned up to 'play' on your land? Ok Mossdale is fairly isolated (god knows why anyone would want to go down there having seen the height of the flood line on the outside and having read various accounts of the rescue) but remember to the relatives of those who remain in this cave it's a grave and should be given the respect that it deserves. But don't go in without permission - you're making us all look bad.
If I was a landowner it wouldn't bother me... And....
Technically its not on but under the land. A public right of way passes Mossdale so you only walk(trespass on) the land for say 100ft if that before disappearing underground out of sight - what is so bad about that? If I was on a motorbike tearing up the fell then I could see the relevance of not being happy at people 'playing' on the land.
There is just over 10km of passage, to classify it all as a grave is a bit much. I'm sure all cavers would steer clear of the actual grave site out of respect.
Perhaps the word 'all' was stretching things - 'most' would have been a more appropriate word to use...
Can't say I have met a nasty disrespectful caver (although I could name one person that I figure fits the bill), but as with any part of life there is always the dickhead element that has no respect for anything - it can't be solved - so why should access stop for the sake of a 'potential' mindless minority?
cap n chris
Well-known member
This is a huge topic on its own. Discuss.
AndyF
New member
I recently watched a documentary where some "climbers" found Mallory's body on Mount Everest, and stripped it of its artefacts..... so nothing would surprise me.
Others put the body of Floyd Collins (USA cave explorer) on display in an exhibition. There ended up being a lawsuit over who owned it...
Others put the body of Floyd Collins (USA cave explorer) on display in an exhibition. There ended up being a lawsuit over who owned it...
Indeed it is.
Desecration of graves - its a common fact of modern life - I've read stories of muppets knocking over/destroying gravestones and the like and desecrating war memorials - do we stop the public from visiting these sites because of a mindless minority - no.
Or what about football... how much money is wasted policing games these days? and why... because a mindless minority cause trouble - have the sensible majority been stopped from going because of the mindless minority - no.
And the list could quite easily go on if I could be arsed to think about the subject in more detail....
Pathetic isn't it... I didn't bring this up in my post earlier as I didn't want to start a new topic within a topic... at what point in time does a body become irrelevant to relatives etc?
With Mallory - less than a hundred years, Floyd - similar time if memory serves me right... So after how many years is it "acceptable" to plunder and be disrespectful to those that have perished in the pursuit of exploration?
graham
New member
Possibly a better parallel than those far given would be with those shipwrecks that have been designated war graves and thus on which, IIRC diving is forbidden.
Floyd Collins' body was not quiteput on show. It was originally placed in a coffin in the main passage of Collins Crystal Cave, his family's show cave but frequently the guide would lift the lid showing his embalmed corpse. This was not decades after his death (certainly not a hundred years, he hasn't been dead that long!) but a very short time after.
But then Americans can be very peculiar people.
Floyd Collins' body was not quiteput on show. It was originally placed in a coffin in the main passage of Collins Crystal Cave, his family's show cave but frequently the guide would lift the lid showing his embalmed corpse. This was not decades after his death (certainly not a hundred years, he hasn't been dead that long!) but a very short time after.
But then Americans can be very peculiar people.
Cumbrian Neil
Member
graham said:
I read somewhere recently that Floyd's body has been moved over four times. I wonder if Michael Jackson wants it to go alongside the Elephant Man!!
I agree with Dunc with respect to the site of the internment... anyone willing to head into Mossdale is either:
1. Not quite all there and will bail out of the cave somewhere near the Drown or Glories.
2. Serious about what they are doing and respect the area where the bodies are buried. Apparently, finding where they are buried is an indertaking in itself!!
My guess is that it is too long a walk for anyone that isn't commited to being respectful.
Go for it Mr. Beck... you know how I feel about the topic of Mossdale and the potential of the area. Nowt has ever been gained by folks sitting on their arses!!
CN.
G
George North
Guest
No! Don't do it Mr Beck!
Surely we're much more likely to gain proper access in the future if folk restrain from going down there at the moment. In my opinion this holds just as true for places like Langcliffe, Strans Gill etc. as Mossdale.
Surely there's enough miserable shite-holes in the Dales to go down, without going down the ones which will stir up more shit for cavers.
Dunc:
"If I was a landowner it wouldn't bother me" How can you possibly know this without being a landowner??
Surely we're much more likely to gain proper access in the future if folk restrain from going down there at the moment. In my opinion this holds just as true for places like Langcliffe, Strans Gill etc. as Mossdale.
Surely there's enough miserable shite-holes in the Dales to go down, without going down the ones which will stir up more shit for cavers.
Dunc:
"If I was a landowner it wouldn't bother me" How can you possibly know this without being a landowner??
Do you really believe that?? Perhaps with a change of landowner maybe..? Just out of interest when was access last 'properly and officially' allowed??
Its not the owning of land its the attitude and mind-set of it all. Allowing or denying access is nothing to do with being a landowner but more to do with how that person thinks and feels with regards to access to their land.. A glance around the country shows some landowners to allow access with no fuss others whack private signs up everywhere and make access difficult..
In the situation of Mossdale - have you ever been to Mossdale?? - if not then I can tell you its a bleak place, miles from anywhere - if it was in a field close to a house/farm/etc then I could see the relevance of the point on the access issue...
Beardy
Member
Hi Simon,
Mossdale Caverns -well then - its an excellent cave
located miles from anywhere (10m from a public bridleway)
A trip to Rough Chamber in dry and settled weather is a brilliant introduction to this fantastic system.
The best reference to the system is undoubtedly ULSA Explorations Journal 2 still available from shops or the club.
Here's my last trip report from May 2004.
Mossdale Caverns
Sunday, 16 May 2004
Excellent trip to the far reaches of the cave. Had a nice (if not late - 10.30am) Breakfast in Grassington - does anyone know where you can get an early breakfast here?
Lovely walk up from above Yarnbury - parked in the dry valley where fossil pot is then walked up along the wall to a Landover track that heads directly to Mossdale Scar. If approaching this cave you are advised to do so discreetly (i.e. as a walker with caving gear in rucksack) .
A slow change in the sunshine left us no option other than to enter the cave at lunchtime via the new entrance.
Once the entrance choke was behind us we flew through the Drown or Glories and enjoyed the splendor of Boulder Chamber. We made a detour to Confusion Cavern, as I'd never been there before. After 20 minute from entering the cave we stood in Rough Chamber at the end of the easy bit.
Before long we were involved with Kneewrecker, Near & Far Marathons. A short dig was required at the aven at the base of the mud caverns & soon we were exploring these. A short foray into the mud caverns north was enjoyed before heading for our objective the extensions at the south end of the mud caverns. Its quite a long muddy way along here to the old final choke and the squeezes through this seemed tighter than back in 1995. After 2hours 20 minutes we stood in Anniversary Chamber an impressive chamber we a strong draught is in evidence. The steeply sloping floor is made entirely of limestone boulders and the draught seems to be strongest up in the roof. Enthusiasm for further digging left us and we decided to head out.
Back at the streamway I decided to tick stream end cave as on my previous visits this passage had been sumped at Mini Cow. Today however I could crawl from the aven beyond the previously sumped sections to a get to a large cross rift where the way on was solidly choked some several hundred feet beyond mini cow. Crawling back as fast as I could I eventually met Mr. Davies in Rough chamber (he'd waited 48 minutes for me). The two of us headed out with sore knees and emerged after a pleasant six hour trip
Beardy
As for access to the cave - the accident was 37 years ago, talking to the some of the deceased's caving friends who were active in the cave in the 60's & 70's i'm sure that they would all want the exploration of the cave to continue safely. I have great respect for Dave Adamson, Geoff Boireau, William Frakes, John Ogden, Michael Ryan and Colin Vickers, long may they rest in peace. The reason that they were there on that fateful day in 1967 was to try and discover the vast as yet undiscovered caverns that lie beyond the known cave and that is why future generations of cavers will continue to visit this cave in the future.
The cave itself is undoubtedly flood prone - but is probably no more dangerous than other places in the dales - Marble Steps Pot The Intestines Route for example.
The entrance will I hope shortly be on open access land and although that doesn't give a right to descend freely but at least there is no access agreement to destroy. - Why caving wasn't given the same status as climbing in these areas is beyond me - you will be able to leagally climb on Mossdale Scar but not enter the cave hmmm - don't get me started.
And Langcliffe another classic - only been a few times - carrying diving gear to the Posiedon Sump and visiting the New Fearnought Streamway .
We manged to get permission for the Langcliffe Trip, via the WRPC but permission in these parts does seem to be a bit of a "closed shop"
I hope you enjoy you visits here
Cave Safely
Regards
Beardy
Mossdale Caverns -well then - its an excellent cave
located miles from anywhere (10m from a public bridleway)
A trip to Rough Chamber in dry and settled weather is a brilliant introduction to this fantastic system.
The best reference to the system is undoubtedly ULSA Explorations Journal 2 still available from shops or the club.
Here's my last trip report from May 2004.
Mossdale Caverns
Sunday, 16 May 2004
Excellent trip to the far reaches of the cave. Had a nice (if not late - 10.30am) Breakfast in Grassington - does anyone know where you can get an early breakfast here?
Lovely walk up from above Yarnbury - parked in the dry valley where fossil pot is then walked up along the wall to a Landover track that heads directly to Mossdale Scar. If approaching this cave you are advised to do so discreetly (i.e. as a walker with caving gear in rucksack) .
A slow change in the sunshine left us no option other than to enter the cave at lunchtime via the new entrance.
Once the entrance choke was behind us we flew through the Drown or Glories and enjoyed the splendor of Boulder Chamber. We made a detour to Confusion Cavern, as I'd never been there before. After 20 minute from entering the cave we stood in Rough Chamber at the end of the easy bit.
Before long we were involved with Kneewrecker, Near & Far Marathons. A short dig was required at the aven at the base of the mud caverns & soon we were exploring these. A short foray into the mud caverns north was enjoyed before heading for our objective the extensions at the south end of the mud caverns. Its quite a long muddy way along here to the old final choke and the squeezes through this seemed tighter than back in 1995. After 2hours 20 minutes we stood in Anniversary Chamber an impressive chamber we a strong draught is in evidence. The steeply sloping floor is made entirely of limestone boulders and the draught seems to be strongest up in the roof. Enthusiasm for further digging left us and we decided to head out.
Back at the streamway I decided to tick stream end cave as on my previous visits this passage had been sumped at Mini Cow. Today however I could crawl from the aven beyond the previously sumped sections to a get to a large cross rift where the way on was solidly choked some several hundred feet beyond mini cow. Crawling back as fast as I could I eventually met Mr. Davies in Rough chamber (he'd waited 48 minutes for me). The two of us headed out with sore knees and emerged after a pleasant six hour trip
Beardy
As for access to the cave - the accident was 37 years ago, talking to the some of the deceased's caving friends who were active in the cave in the 60's & 70's i'm sure that they would all want the exploration of the cave to continue safely. I have great respect for Dave Adamson, Geoff Boireau, William Frakes, John Ogden, Michael Ryan and Colin Vickers, long may they rest in peace. The reason that they were there on that fateful day in 1967 was to try and discover the vast as yet undiscovered caverns that lie beyond the known cave and that is why future generations of cavers will continue to visit this cave in the future.
The cave itself is undoubtedly flood prone - but is probably no more dangerous than other places in the dales - Marble Steps Pot The Intestines Route for example.
The entrance will I hope shortly be on open access land and although that doesn't give a right to descend freely but at least there is no access agreement to destroy. - Why caving wasn't given the same status as climbing in these areas is beyond me - you will be able to leagally climb on Mossdale Scar but not enter the cave hmmm - don't get me started.
And Langcliffe another classic - only been a few times - carrying diving gear to the Posiedon Sump and visiting the New Fearnought Streamway .
We manged to get permission for the Langcliffe Trip, via the WRPC but permission in these parts does seem to be a bit of a "closed shop"
I hope you enjoy you visits here
Cave Safely
Regards
Beardy
Cumbrian Neil
Member
Beardy - Your name rings a bell... do you go caving with my old caving buddy... Simon Cornhill??
I have no real desire to go into Mossdale apart from the fact that it is "historic" and is one of the Dale's first hard caves... I'd be ticking it off for the sake of ticking it off. The thought of being in a very large toilet is completely unappealing to me these days. The potential is there, but the problem is that the gritstone band that has caused problems in most of the caves in that area. Getting below that is the trick. The knowledge that the system backs up pretty quickly suggests that there is a considerable blockage in the system. Descent reported several extensions in the 1990s done by ULSA (I think in the draughting area that Beardy talked about).
I'd be getting involved with digging Gill House Pot and High Swineber Pot if I were in search of Caverns Measureless to Man. Both of these holes lie in a good position to break into the Great Scar Limestone. WRPC are involved with both of those sites and have permission to enter. Unfortunately, 3500 miles prevent me from actively pursueing this effectively.
CN.
I have no real desire to go into Mossdale apart from the fact that it is "historic" and is one of the Dale's first hard caves... I'd be ticking it off for the sake of ticking it off. The thought of being in a very large toilet is completely unappealing to me these days. The potential is there, but the problem is that the gritstone band that has caused problems in most of the caves in that area. Getting below that is the trick. The knowledge that the system backs up pretty quickly suggests that there is a considerable blockage in the system. Descent reported several extensions in the 1990s done by ULSA (I think in the draughting area that Beardy talked about).
I'd be getting involved with digging Gill House Pot and High Swineber Pot if I were in search of Caverns Measureless to Man. Both of these holes lie in a good position to break into the Great Scar Limestone. WRPC are involved with both of those sites and have permission to enter. Unfortunately, 3500 miles prevent me from actively pursueing this effectively.
CN.
Beardy
Member
Hi Neil,
Aye, i have caved a few times with Simon, and really enjoyed it.
Indeed a trip to the far reaches is a serious undertaking, but there
are miles of passage, in an intricate easegill like web nearer to the entrance that are relatively easy and the hard work doesn't really begin until after Rough Chamber. These Yoredale Limestone cave passages have a beautiful shape and are somewhat different from the passages in the more typical dales caves well worth seeing in dry settled weather.
Yes you are right that Mossdale is perched on a large grit band, but the water somehow gets through to come out of Black Keld, a log way away..... Langcliffe manages to get through this gritstone band - someone please correct me if i'm wrong but i think its the only cave in Yorkshire that mangaes to do so. However the cave is fairly horrific at the Nemisis Chokes, but the Nemisis Pitch is awesome and extremely intresting as you casn see the 10ft deep grit bed as you abseil down. Unfortunately when you get out of this chaos, the large south wales like cave, has only two downstream leads and these both sump. I keep meaning to get Phil Howson & Brian Judd back in there to dive them again.
Gill House Pot again very interesting - would like to see a dye test result from there, popped in a year or two a go and someone had blasted a route forward and backfilled a descending rift that looked like the way on
High Swinber - think is an ongoing WRPC dig
Swarthgill Hole might repay some attention.
regards
Beardy
Aye, i have caved a few times with Simon, and really enjoyed it.
Indeed a trip to the far reaches is a serious undertaking, but there
are miles of passage, in an intricate easegill like web nearer to the entrance that are relatively easy and the hard work doesn't really begin until after Rough Chamber. These Yoredale Limestone cave passages have a beautiful shape and are somewhat different from the passages in the more typical dales caves well worth seeing in dry settled weather.
Yes you are right that Mossdale is perched on a large grit band, but the water somehow gets through to come out of Black Keld, a log way away..... Langcliffe manages to get through this gritstone band - someone please correct me if i'm wrong but i think its the only cave in Yorkshire that mangaes to do so. However the cave is fairly horrific at the Nemisis Chokes, but the Nemisis Pitch is awesome and extremely intresting as you casn see the 10ft deep grit bed as you abseil down. Unfortunately when you get out of this chaos, the large south wales like cave, has only two downstream leads and these both sump. I keep meaning to get Phil Howson & Brian Judd back in there to dive them again.
Gill House Pot again very interesting - would like to see a dye test result from there, popped in a year or two a go and someone had blasted a route forward and backfilled a descending rift that looked like the way on
High Swinber - think is an ongoing WRPC dig
Swarthgill Hole might repay some attention.
regards
Beardy
