Mossdale!

[Simon Beck]

The weathers great over here in the dales at present and is to remain so for days to come, PERFECT! for Mossdale caverns BUT! have had difficulty persuading my friends to join me, only one seems interested. So if there's anyone out there who's fairly local and fancys a challenging day out( sunday 10th), maybe even dispel the myths that "anyone who steps foot in there is doomed" then send me a PM - hope to hear from someone SEEYA.

 

[George North]

Nowt wrong with going down Mossdale, just don't publicise it on a public forum!

GN.

 

[bubba]

Simon - I've edited your post to remove your phone number - if you're going to do something that is still technically illegal, then I don't think it's a good idea to publish your phone number on here for all to see. Hope that's ok mate.

 

[LoneRanger]

Did you get your trip to Mossdale? If so, how did it go?

Has anyone got to the end of Stream End cave in the last few years?
In 2000 I got to a chamber (cross rift) some distance beyond Minicow that was choked with big mud banks. I went there again last year at the end of the dry spell and the mud banks had mostly gone. The water appeared to head down an almost submerged passage (small triangular airspace). I didn't have a wetsuit so I didn't look too closely. I fancy having another look if we get a long dry spell this year.

Its a good varied trip and quite safe so long as it doesn't rain. The trip takes five hours if you don't stop for rests. To get beyond Minicow, water levels need to be very low - there's a duck that I think is normally sumped. You will also probably need to dig up through the cobble slope below the high level if no one has been down for a while (ten minutes work).

 

[Pitlamp]

Simon - you say the weather is "pefect" for Mossdale but I disagree. The worst ever British caving accident in 1967 happened at Mossdale - in exactly the sort of weather we have at the moment. I started caving a few years after the Mossdale tragedy so I didn't witness it directly. But many experienced cavers who looked after me in my early caving years were there and I have many vivid memories of their attitudes to the place.

At this time of year, despite what the weather forecasters are telling us, rapid and extreme flooding of Mossdale is always a real threat. A large dose of localised convectional rainfall can happen with relatively little warning.

The best time to go down Mossdale would be about 3 p.m. on a freezing cold January afternoon when it's going dark and the stars are out; NOT in hot humid summer conditions. You take care . . . . .

 

[Dave H]

The best time to go down Mossdale would be about 3 p.m. on a freezing cold January afternoon when it's going dark and the stars are out; NOT in hot humid summer conditions. You take care . . . . .

I agree!

 

[Armchair]

At last, a word of common sense on the subject.

 

[dunc]

At last, a word of common sense on the subject.

Are you and others trying to suggest that all that are interested in Mossdale have no common sense???

I would agree that a cold spell in winter is the most preferable weather (especially for the walk to it!) - but just because someone chooses to visit it in summer is no reason to dismiss it like some have.. Its a personal choice, as I'm sure like many have made that choice to visit in summer..

A large dose of localised convectional rainfall can happen with relatively little warning

Quite possibly yes, although the chances are to say the least, remote... We do have our shi**e weather forecasting service, which I'm sure is marginally better than what it was in the 60s..
I wouldn't for one minute trust any forecast from the day before - I would examine the forecast on the day before placing any trust in a forecast and even then I assess the weather when I'm parked up - and thats for any cave.....

 

[SamT]

So lovely day yesterday - nice and hot, good forcast in general - unless you happened to be in the hope valley where there was the almighty thunderstorm - was still sunny when we went in baggers - but you could hear the thunder rumbling all round - had cleared 3 hours later by the time we had come out - but it had clearly rained a hell of a lot.

Reckon its a dodgy time of year for flood prone caves myself.

Id stick to frozen winter afternoons/evenings (not that we get that many) when if it did precipitate it would at least be snow. (but then what if that thaws suddenly )

Lets face it - flood prone caves are always gonna carry that risk and should be treated with great respect.

Just take care out there

 

[Cumbrian Neil]

Good for you Simon, you've got people posting again!! It was a little quiet for a while there!!

CN.

 

[paul]

So lovely day yesterday - nice and hot, good forcast in general - unless you happened to be in the hope valley where there was the almighty thunderstorm - was still sunny when we went in baggers - but you could hear the thunder rumbling all round - had cleared 3 hours later by the time we had come out - but it had clearly rained a hell of a lot.

Not really on topic but as I was near the top of Whalf Pipe Climbing Shaft (near Monyash) a couple of weekends ago there was a great deal of rumbling and I thought that was thunder. It turned out to be a jet flying extremely low and extremely fast passing a few times!

 

[MSD]

I reckon if you go in the summer, you should make a very early start, like 5 a.m. and aim to be out after lunch. The type of convection thunderstorm we are talking about tends to occur late afternoon. That's because they are caused by the sun warming up the ground, which in turn warms the air, causing it to rise. The longer the warming process has been going on, the more risky the situation. Summer thunderstorms usually occur between a wndow of late afternoon through to midnight. Of course there are always exceptions, but it would seem sensible to choose the time of descent at the least risky time.

 

[cap n chris]

Hear, hear.

 

[Dave H]

Also remember that water runs off dry soil faster than damp soil - so surface run off tends to be faster in the summer.
Try this experiment with a cone shape of sand and tipping water on it:
With some dry sand - most of the water runs off.
With some damp sand - most of the water is absorbed.
With some wet sand - most of the water runs off.

Are you and others trying to suggest that all that are interested in Mossdale have no common sense???

Not at all, this thread is just saying that these are not the perfect conditions that Simon was suggesting.

 

[LoneRanger]

There is a problem with winter trips into Mossdale - some parts of the system require very low water levels, which are unlikely to occur in winter. Also you've got to be careful of a sudden thaw.

My view is that the best time for Mossdale is a dry spell in summer, but definitely not if the weather is humid and thundery. The water in Mossdale is also much warmer in summer, which makes for a less arduous trip.

 

[Pitlamp]

As mentioned earlier, I still think the best time is when the sparklers are coming out and the thermometer plummets late on a clear frosty winter afternoon. This is the sort of weather which is extremely unlikely to cause a thaw - such anticyclonic winter conditions are pretty reliable; much more so than hot humid summer days.

I take your point about caver comfort when the water is warmer in summer - but if you're drowned in a flash flood I guess it's no consolation if it wasn't as chilly. Invest in some better neoprene and keep it in good repair. I also agree with MSD about setting off very early if you must go in summer.

By the way, I wasn't trying to denigrate anybody with the original posting above. It's just that when one has been caving for quite a few years one does tend to experience the effects of extreme weather a fair bit and gain a healthy respect for water in caves. Mossdale is a fine system and deserves attention from active exploring cavers. But it's not worth losing any of our friends.