• The Derbyshire Caver, No. 158

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Multiple entrance access

cap n chris

Well-known member
On a more serious note, the Hawaiian legislation seems very comprehensive. You probably won't be surprised to hear that caves in the UK have practically no legislation protecting them, but only legislation protecting wildlife within them and some archaeological sites (Ancient Scheduled Monuments).
 
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emgee

Guest
Ouan said:
The Hawaii Cave Protection Law (2002) made it illegal to enter a cave without the prior written permission of the (surface) landowner or risk a fine of $11,000. This means that to traverse the 60 km long Kazumura Cave permission is required from all 4,000 landowners.

http://www.delrioabogados.com/espeleolex/hawaii.htm

Has anyone managed to negotiate an access agreement?
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
.... or do people do the trip illegally?; also, is the fine $11,000 for failing to get 4,000 permissions (i.e. just under $3 per failed permission) or is it possibly $11,000 dollars each, i.e. max fine $44million?
 
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MSD

Guest
Just because a tresspass is not found to be criminal doesn't mean that the landowner couldn't sue you for damages. The point is that a criminal prosecution must be proved beyond reasonable doubt, but a civil case only requires a lower standard of proof.

I notice that some shops have notices up saying "if you are caught shoplifting we will sue you for damages", together with an approximate calculation of what they will sue you for. It includes everything from cost of staff time, security systems, loss of goods, legal costs, etc. etc. It totals several thousand pounds, i.e. far more than you would be fined in a criminal court. I have no idea whether such cases have actually be settled for anything like these sums, but they certainly gives the impression that the civil law has more teeth than criminal law (and at a lower burden of proof, too!).

Tentative conclusion: civil law might be more relevant than criminal law in many cases of tresspass. If you knock down a drystone wall by accident, Plod might not bother very much, but if the landowner sues you for the cost of rebuilding you might find yourself with a big bill.

Mark
 
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hole_in_the_rock

Guest
MSD said:
Just because a tresspass is not found to be criminal doesn't mean that the landowner couldn't sue you for damages.

snip

Tentative conclusion: civil law might be more relevant than criminal law in many cases of tresspass. If you knock down a drystone wall by accident, Plod might not bother very much, but if the landowner sues you for the cost of rebuilding you might find yourself with a big bill.

Mark

Basic English Law is considered in cases of trespass, as is the purpose of the trespass (accidental, malcious, criminal, unintentional etc).
If you jump over a neighbours fence to retreive your childs ball, and damage some plants, you usually (if you are a decent person) offer to pay for the damage before the neighbour has a chance to consider sueing you. A deliberate trespass, with accidental damage.

If you fall off a wall (usually after a few too many drinks) and land in a garden, killing plants etc, it is accidental trespass and accidental damage, and still worthy of an apology and replacement plants.

If however, your neighbour has something in/on/under his property which you do not have access to, and you wait until he is not around to use his property, it is intentional. So the intentions are looked into.

If you trespassed to put out a fire that would have destroyed his property, you would be a hero. But if you end up repeatedly exploiting his property, you will become a criminal.


Then there is the aspect of Vicarious liability:
As an example try to imagine the following scenario

Several well meaning diggers use Mr X's land to gain access to some underground features. Whilst underground the diggers cross to land that Mr X does not own, and start digging (in a bid to re-open sealed passageways).
Mr X does not know that the diggers are on someone else's land, digging away like moles, and has not allowed the diggers access to his own land. The owner of the land they are digging under finds out that digging has occured under his/her/their land, and trace the source of entry to Mr X. Mr X is sued for allowing the diggers entry that in turn allowed them to trespass and damage Mr X's neighbours property.
Mr X is vicariously liable.
However, the diggers did not dig on the spur of the moment. They went equipped to dig, so this trespass can be dealt with in either the civil courts or the criminal courts, or both, and by both owners of the two properties if they so wish.


MINERAL RIGHTS:
A favourite topic of mine. Please do not get confused with land covenants, which restrict removal of certain items. You can have a covenant on a tree that stops it from being cut down, but that does not infer that the covenant owner owns the tree or has any legal access rights to that tree.
The same applies to land. owning a covenant restricting the removal of minerals/artefacts does not infer that the covenant owner owns the minerals or any access rights. The covenant owner, unless stated otherwise in the property deeds and covenant, will have no access rights to the property, and will not be able to assign any rights that affect the legal owners. It may be possible for the covenat owner to allow the extraction of certain items/minerals, if and ONLY IF the owner of the land agrees to allow access.
A covenant owner that encourages trespassers on land that he does not own, is as guilty as the people trespassing.


The above scenarios are not intended to relate to any person or persons past or present. Any similarities are coincidental.
 

graham

New member
If there is trespass but no damage then, except in certain cases appertaining mainly, but not exclusively, to the railways, there is no criminal act and the trespasser is not a criminal.

If there is no damage then what loss would the landowner sue for in the civil courts?

I am not advocating trespass, far from it, but I do think that many people need a better understanding of the law.
 
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hole_in_the_rock

Guest
graham said:
If there is trespass but no damage then, except in certain cases appertaining mainly, but not exclusively, to the railways, there is no criminal act and the trespasser is not a criminal.

If there is no damage then what loss would the landowner sue for in the civil courts?

I am not advocating trespass, far from it, but I do think that many people need a better understanding of the law.

Is there such a thing as an owner who has not suffered damage as the result of people trespassing?

Would you enter you neighbours house when he is out for a snoop around? or do you respect his privacy and wait until you see him to ask to have a look around? The chances are most will ask, but those who expect to get refused will never ask, relying on not getting caught or using a pathetic excuse when getting caught.

Perhaps if the word trespasser meant: inconsiderate b4st4rd that cares only about his/herself and his/her own belonings and has no respect for others things. Things might be easier to understand for those too f*+ked up to know right from wrong.

Whatever will the question be next? Is child beating ok if you dont let any bruises show and you dont get caught????

If it is wrong and not socially acceptable, then it is wrong and socially unacceptable. There is no in between, and no grey areas.

If there is no physical damage to the property or properties that were accessed from the property, and the owner has not suffered or been inconvenienced in any way, then trespass damages might not apply. However the act of trespass might get itself covered with privacy and unlawful entry issues should the owner wish, which can often be more costly than a simple trespass case.

Why do people need a better understanding of the trespass laws and repercussions of trespassing, unless they are planning to break the law by deliberately trespassing?
 

graham

New member
hole_in_the_rock said:
graham said:
If there is trespass but no damage then, except in certain cases appertaining mainly, but not exclusively, to the railways, there is no criminal act and the trespasser is not a criminal.

If there is no damage then what loss would the landowner sue for in the civil courts?

I am not advocating trespass, far from it, but I do think that many people need a better understanding of the law.

Is there such a thing as an owner who has not suffered damage as the result of people trespassing?

Yes, hundreds upon hundreds.
 

Brains

Well-known member
Something about Kinder Scout comes to mind here, and thoughts about how an impartial court of law might view what might be considered malacious proceedings. In various cases in the past a guilty verdict has been handed down (by the letter of the law) with a nominal fine, and then costs have levied against the accuser. The costs of such action can far outweigh the benefits gained to either side.
Remember, the only people who will really benefit will be the lawyers who get rich on the misery of others.
Please take a large dose of common sense when hurling threats of litigation about.
In addition, I contend that, IMO, the world is solely composed of shades of grey, from the subatomic Schroedingers Cat to the ultimate fate of the universe. The only people who seek to have it otherwise are the pedantic nitpickers with an axe to grind and a view to s fast buck. Dont believe me? Then really define the physical boundary of any property, go on - do it, right down to the finest level.
 
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hole_in_the_rock

Guest
Brains said:
Please take a large dose of common sense when hurling threats of litigation about.

Did we miss that bit in this thread, or did you make it up? Only we are trying to keep things on topic, and as no-one is hurling any litigation around on this thread, we have to wonder if you are replying to the same forum and topic?

Will the nasty person who hurls threats of litigation on this thread please stand up and go to the corner of the room. You have upset Brains.
 

Peter Burgess

New member
Only we are trying to keep things on topic,

Good idea. It's about an underground site with more than one entrance, and the owner of one entrance not permitting access. I wonder if Dep thinks its been discussed thoroughly enough?
 

graham

New member
hole_in_the_rock said:
Why do people need a better understanding of the trespass laws and repercussions of trespassing, unless they are planning to break the law by deliberately trespassing?

Might I humbly suggest that knowledge of the law is a prerequisite of ensuring firstly that you do not break it and secondly that you do not wrongly accuse others of breaking it?
 
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andymorgan

Guest
graham said:
hole_in_the_rock said:
Why do people need a better understanding of the trespass laws and repercussions of trespassing, unless they are planning to break the law by deliberately trespassing?

Might I humbly suggest that knowledge of the law is a prerequisite of ensuring firstly that you do not break it and secondly that you do not wrongly accuse others of breaking it?

But trespass is not 'breaking the law'...

How about this well known quote 'please forgive those who trespass against us'
 

gus horsley

New member
andymorgan said:
How about this well known quote 'please forgive those who trespass against us'

I'm not sure the Biblical trespass is the same as what's being discussed in the forum. Doesn't the Biblical one just refer to anything anybody does to give you a hard time? In which case it's the same as "turning the other cheek". Admittedly the only time I do the latter is when I feel the need to fart at a restaurant.
 

graham

New member
andymorgan said:
graham said:
hole_in_the_rock said:
Why do people need a better understanding of the trespass laws and repercussions of trespassing, unless they are planning to break the law by deliberately trespassing?

Might I humbly suggest that knowledge of the law is a prerequisite of ensuring firstly that you do not break it and secondly that you do not wrongly accuse others of breaking it?

But trespass is not 'breaking the law'...

Ah, but you only know that through having a good understanding of the law. ;)
 
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andymorgan

Guest
gus horsley said:
andymorgan said:
How about this well known quote 'please forgive those who trespass against us'

I'm not sure the Biblical trespass is the same as what's being discussed in the forum. Doesn't the Biblical one just refer to anything anybody does to give you a hard time? In which case it's the same as "turning the other cheek". Admittedly the only time I do the latter is when I feel the need to fart at a restaurant.

Er yes, I was joking....
 
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