Northern caving needs you

[Pete Brookdale]

Ironically and completely irrelevant,

I would love to be secretary for one of the fells, I could almost guarantee an emailed permit same day for any club applying but alas I can't be doing with committee meetings etc, but any CNCC member reading you know how to contact me if my services were required.

hmm I think I need a lie down!

 

[RB]

Last time I went caving in Yorkshire I visited the CNCC website, with all the up to date details and cave information, applied for a permit which came back in a few days. I then went and trusted my life to several CNCC installed and tested bolts underground. We all had a great day out, came home safe and it didn't really cost a penny.

Sounds like they deserve a round of beers to me.

 

[Bottlebank]

Last time I went caving in Yorkshire I visited the CNCC website, with all the up to date details and cave information, applied for a permit which came back in a few days. I then went and trusted my life to several CNCC installed and tested bolts underground. We all had a great day out, came home safe and it didn't really cost a penny.

Which is how it needs to be, unfortunately as things stand a lot of cavers can't do that. As one of the meets secretaries reports makes clear:

We still have quite a number of clubs who are not BCA members making requests but
these are refused and passed on for Glenn Jones to deal with.

 

[richardg]

Last time I went caving in Yorkshire I visited the CNCC website, with all the up to date details and cave information, applied for a permit which came back in a few days. I then went and trusted my life to several CNCC installed and tested bolts underground. We all had a great day out, came home safe and it didn't really cost a penny.

Which is how it needs to be, unfortunately as things stand a lot of cavers can't do that. As one of the meets secretaries reports makes clear:

We still have quite a number of clubs who are not BCA members making requests but
these are refused and passed on for Glenn Jones to deal with.

Yeah!  if a club ain't got BCA membership its not likely to have Public Liability insurance,

 

[Simon Beck]

All the best to those in need of change, albeit the CNCC have always done right by me. 
Northern caving will remain as always for me, regardless of which way it goes. 

 

[Simon Wilson]

Hiya Simon,
A few people have said similar things and with all respect I think you don't understand the situation. Most people think that the CNCC started off OK and did some good. The problem is not what the CNCC has done in the past, the problem is the way they intend to go in the future and what they are doing now.

They intend to become a "legal entity" and start charging for permits, would the next step be becoming a limited company?

What they are doing now is they are still criticising the Leck Fell regulars for caving without permits. That criticism is what kicked off the permits saga. They are still criticising us, they will not admit they have done anything wrong and they are still being secretive about it.

 

[Simon Wilson]

At the January committee meeting the two issues which took up most time were the issue of incorrect procedure at meetings and the secret permit system. In the draft minutes for that meeting these two issues have been grossly distorted.

http://www.cncc.org.uk/documents/cncc_minutes_11th_january_2014.pdf

The officers were pressed repeatedly throughout the whole meeting to name the 14 committee member clubs and they absolutely could not do so. The Secretary said that he could not name the 14 and said that the names could be found in the AGM minutes from a few years ago. He said that he would instead read out a list of full member clubs. When he got to about forty he was politely asked to stop reading because it was pointless when the real issue was that he could not name the 14 committee members. The fact that they could not name the committee is a serious matter which has deliberately been kept out of the minutes.

In the meeting the person taking the minutes was specifically asked to minute the description of the secret permit system. He has not done that and the secret permit system has been kept out of the minutes; they are still trying to keep it secret. Instead there is a statement that caving has been taking place without permits. I take this as a criticism of those caving without permits.

It was said in the meeting that regulars on Leck Fell go without permits but this has been taken out of context and needs to be put it context. It was part of the explanation as to why people go without permits and that is because the official rules make it impossible to get permits if you want to go caving frequently and at short notice. It was also said that if the CNCC want to relax the rules then they should let all members know about it and not keep it a secret known only to them and their friends.

The January minutes and the reports to the AGM would have been good opportunities for officers to be honest about both the incorrect running of meetings and about the secret permit system but instead the officers have chosen not only to gloss over them but to misrepresent them and to be openly critical of those people who have raised objections.

 

[Simon Beck]

Hi Simon
Even though i've been following all the threads relating to this subject, i am still unaware to the full extent of what's going on, so i'm hardly in a position to raise my voice on this issue.
All the best Si, we'll have to get out caving sometime haven't seen you for years.

 

[Simon Wilson]

An explanation of the background to the proposal for commercial caving has just been added to the CNCC website.

The proposal was negotiated without consulting the Association of Caving Instructors. Only two caving instructors were consulted and both have rejected it. So one has to wonder why the CNCC are trying to bulldoze it through against the wishes of commercial cavers.

http://www.cncc.org.uk/documents/commercial_caving_proposal_agm2014.pdf

Please attend the AGM and vote against accepting it.

 

[Jon]

Do we know who the minibuses belonged to?

If the CNCC is correct in stating that the landowners aren't interested in charging recreational cavers, what's the problem?

 

[Smiley Alan]

thanks for teh link simon , its intresting to read

i like the bit were it says in the FAQ  the landowners " are aware recretional cavers are a benfit to them" but it does'nt say commercial caving is a benefit . it just says  " the payment made is .. . . a payment . . . for finanial gain" . i guess that money does'nt count as a benefit then.

after the faq question asking " does CNCC profit from this ?" the answer could be shorter . yes would do.

 

[Stu]

What an absolute fudge. There are gaps which are "measureless to man" in that proposal.

It needs kicking out just because of some of the contradictions and knee jerk reaction to events.

More time needs to be put into this and if that means an extraordinary meeting at another date, then so be it.

 

[Stu]

Question:

When was DM's letter to his MP written i.e. where in the chronology of events did that letter occur?

 

[Smiley Alan]

FAQ  is this the thin end of the wedge  for paying for access ?

yes .

of course it is

 

[Pete K]

....A proposal was put together by the CNCC committee to try to meet the
requirements of the landowner while ensuring ongoing access for commercial
groups. To expedite this process, the proposal was written based on the best
judgement of the CNCC as the administering body, without collaboration with
commercial caving representatives. Although thorough consultation with the
commercial caving community would have been desirable, it would have been
very time consuming to work across multiple groups to draw the proposal up,
with no guarantees of reaching an acceptable conclusion, and during which
time the fells would have remained closed to commercial cavers.....

Sorry but that stinks! These fells are closed to commercial cavers anyway so the reason to exclude the ACI etc from the process for speed is based on a lie. I'm torn between attending the DCA AGM on Sat in my region or to drive up to the CNCC one.

 

[Bottlebank]

It's a shame they didn't put that out earlier. My opinion is still that it's a perfectly sensible proposal that should perhaps be adopted at some stage but not before CNCC agrees to push for access for all cavers - including DIM's and non BCA members wherever possible (i.e. overseas cavers) and considers it fully.

I feel that there hasn't been (or if there has it hasn't been made clear) any consideration of the possible legal and insurance consequences of an incident or fatality involving a commercial group. If CNCC charges for a permit does it owe a duty of care to the group involved? Let's be honest instructors are pretty good but sometimes they get it wrong. Does the CNCC have an obligation for example to withdraw permits in the event of a poor weather forecast. I'm not saying it does but I think the question needs exploring before a decision is made. Several clubs have adopted Limited Liability status where they are regularly involved with paying members of the public, would this be beneficial in this case?

Is it the thin end of the wedge for paying for access - no. Paying for access in the Dales is well established in a small number of cases - Alum Pot and White Scar for example. There's no reason to think that charging commercial cavers using caves for financial gain will lead to charges being imposed on the rest of us.

Unfortunately I can't make Saturdays meeting so if anyone thinks I have a point perhaps they could raise it?

 

[Stu]

....A proposal was put together by the CNCC committee to try to meet the
requirements of the landowner while ensuring ongoing access for commercial
groups. To expedite this process, the proposal was written based on the best
judgement of the CNCC as the administering body, without collaboration with
commercial caving representatives. Although thorough consultation with the
commercial caving community would have been desirable, it would have been
very time consuming to work across multiple groups to draw the proposal up,
with no guarantees of reaching an acceptable conclusion, and during which
time the fells would have remained closed to commercial cavers.....

Sorry but that stinks!

Is much more polite than my initial reaction.

 

[Smiley Alan]

If the CNCC is correct in stating that the landowners aren't interested in charging recreational cavers, what's the problem?

im not the cleverest person  in hte world but it looks  like an instructor wanted access  for working trips &  cncc did'nt like the idea  of being left  out in the cold and saw  an oportunity to stay in charge , earn some ?? by  taking a cut , and made  up a vershun of events  to keep things sweet .

i read somewere that land owners can make  any deals they like and my gess is  that when a company wants to go caving  they will just give ?? to the land owner direct and  aviod having  to join cncc and do lots of paper work .  when companys start giving big payments  to land owners club cavers  will be side lined sooner or  later .

 

[Bottlebank]

It seems very unlikely the landowner would want to pay someone to deal with the odd commercial caver just to collect ?20. It would probably cost more in time and admin to process the payment.

At the same time CNCC probably do want control, and are prepared to do the work for free and simply bank a cheque for the land owner now and again.

Where does it say cave instructors should get a free ride? If someone decides to use your land to make themselves money without your permission you are entitled to feel a little miffed, and to want to stop it happening. It makes sense they would turn to the nearest organisation they deal with and ask them to get involved.

 

[Stu]

Where does it say cave instructors should get a free ride? If someone decides to use your land to make themselves money without your permission you are entitled to feel a little miffed, and to want to stop it happening. It makes sense they would turn to the nearest organisation they deal with and ask them to get involved.

Access to the caves in question has never been "allowed" for commercial cavers so there never has been a free ride. One or two operators have had a special agreement with the landowners to occasionally use them but they're infrequent (to the best of my knowledge). There is no cash cow being milked here (though I'll gloss over the point about instructors bringing in the tourist pound to the villages that they stay in).

And the larger point is that the landowners aren't wanting to stop any sort of activity on the fells (if my reading of the document is correct i.e. "the landowners are aware of the benefits of cavers") which doesn't seem very "on CNCC message".