Numptys

[anfieldman]

And in the Canadian Rockies, a 'hard pusher' is a force to be reckoned with...

Well a man can get awful lonely up in them there mountains. Brokeback was it??
Only kidding. My Grandfather was actually a Mountie for a while.

Back to the thread.
I think the vast majority of us encourage newbies, not take the piss out of them but I had to draw the line at the bloke I mentioned wanting to come out of the Tradesmans Entrance without a rope. It's an awful slippy cave is Goatchurch as I found out myself that day!

 

[Peter Burgess]

And in the Canadian Rockies, a 'hard pusher' is a force to be reckoned with...

Back to the thread.
I think the vast majority of us encourage newbies, not take the piss out of them but I had to draw the line at the bloke I mentioned wanting to come out of the Tradesmans Entrance without a rope. It's an awful slippy cave is Goatchurch as I found out myself that day!

And in the Canadian Rockies, a 'hard pusher' is a force to be reckoned with...

I think the vast majority of us encourage newbies, not take the piss out of them but I had to draw the line at the bloke I mentioned wanting to come out of the Tradesmans Entrance without a rope. It's an awful slippy cave is Goatchurch as I found out myself that day!

Last weekend, I took my to boys and their cousin into Goatchurch. My elder boy, aged 10, was very keen. There was nothing he didn't want to try. He had been to GC a few times in the past, and I was content to let him 'lead' us around, to try to find where to go. I had a line with me which I used to encourage his younger brother to get down and up the places that intimidated him. After the trip, elder son was extremely proud to have explored to the end, and climbed back up the whole cave to the Back Door (AKA Tradesman's) with no aids at all. It was his first attempt at the Coffin Lid, and although he took a long time at it, I watched him take great care on the climb out of Back Door, checking for holds and steps all the way. He got close to the top on the left side, decided it wasn't possible for him, so lowered himself back down and tried the right side, equally as carefully. At no time did I worry for his safety as he was doing all the right things. Now, he was dressed in old trousers, and an ill-fitting cagoule of mine from more than 20 years back, and was using a hired lamp and helmet, and to the casual onlooker would have looked like any one of the various 'numpty' groups one is supposed to find in Goatchurch on a regular basis.

Now, either I misjudged the situation and should have insisted that he at least used the handline which was there, or he is proving to be a confident and capable caver (for his age) and I should be proud of him for completing what was (for him) a great achievement.

 

[anfieldman]

from more than 20 years back, and was using a hired lamp and helmet, and to the casual onlooker would have looked like any one of the various 'numpty' groups one is supposed to find in Goatchurch on a regular basis.

Do you think that you might have worried a bit if he was not wearing a helmet? The bloke I was referring to did not provide his son with anything other than a small torch.

 

[finster]

For Scout perspective there are guidelines that are set down what to wear, where to go etc  as I would like to think that applies to other youth groups, theres no problem with over dressing someone helemet light, good boots.... I don't care how good you are sandles and a torch between 3 is crap!  Ive see it in Goatchurch Dad who caved about 20yrs ago plus show his kids around totally ill equipped I know the way... I think!! The problem is its a free country and the great outdoors relies on people being sensible, thank god most people are. There will always be numptys what ever discipline, mountaineering is far worse...

 

[Peter Burgess]

from more than 20 years back, and was using a hired lamp and helmet, and to the casual onlooker would have looked like any one of the various 'numpty' groups one is supposed to find in Goatchurch on a regular basis.

Do you think that you might have worried a bit if he was not wearing a helmet? The bloke I was referring to did not provide his son with anything other than a small torch.

Point taken - I was more making the point that climbing out of Back Door without a line is not a numpty thing to attempt (unless you don't have proper footwear and a helmet of course).

 

[Graham.E]

Is it not time that we got away from the nanny state/health and safety mentality and back to some idea of adventure. I am lucky to have started caving in the era when we made up our own kit (pre wet suit days) cobbled together some form of lighting, helmets if available were made of compressed cardboard [very comfortable even when wet, but no use at all [is any helmet] in a major rock fall or personal fall.]
Allow some foolhardy but brave soles to explore 'Goatchurch' or 'Suicide' to the limits of their abilities without the 'I know better' brigade criticising their valient efforts. Please! 

 

[finster]

"Allow some foolhardy but brave soles to explore 'Goatchurch' or 'Suicide' to the limits of their abilities without the 'I know better' brigade criticising their valient efforts. Please!"

Fair comment if the individuals were adults but leading a group of "kids" come on... I too started my caving career with limited kit
but still managed to cobble together the basics, boots, jumper, boiler suit, bin bag if wet cave and later on a cag.. just borrowed and begged the rest ie helmet and lamp.  I hate the nanny state too but there is such a thing as duty of care!

 

[Simon Beck]

My sentiments exactly graham, well said!...........

 

[Simon Beck]

I'm just glad i don't have to share my county or caves on a regular basis with the above who've got nothing better to do but discuss this crap, me too for reading this garbage in the first place, get off your high bloody horse's. It reminds me of an earlier thread called assholes in goatchurch, only one asshole in my eyes by the way........Obviously you lot have nothing better but goatchurch to do seen as how you're forever bumping into these so called numptys, i think it's time you guys started digging somemore holes down there.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I'm just glad i don't have to share my county or caves on a regular basis with the above folk.

I expect the 'above folk' are equally as pleased !

 

[Graham.E]

Thanks Simon, nice to know I'm not alone. To reply to finster, when I used to take kids underground I did find/beg borrow as much kit as possible but that was not my point. The excitement of adventure must be allowed to flurish or to my mind at least we are all doomed to a future of organised trips to 'Tesco' with sutable clothing of course.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Thanks Simon, nice to know I'm not alone. To reply to finster, when I used to take kids underground I did find/beg borrow as much kit as possible but that was not my point. The excitement of adventure must be allowed to flurish or to my mind at least we are all doomed to a future of organised trips to 'Tesco' with sutable clothing of course.

Agreed. And best done in the family up to a certain age, then with peer groups.

 

[Hughie]

Thanks Simon, nice to know I'm not alone.

Ermm... if you read all the posts, you'll see you're very much not alone.

 

[finster]

Fair cop but, I love the adventure and excitment of caving and digging  how I do it to what extrems is down to me and who I go caving I have the ability to choose. But when I have my Scout instructor hat on I have to follow certain guidelines, which are not only there to protect the kids but the instructors, back to the nanny state etc and take people to court etc... Take kids underground of any age is a serious undertaking adults can sign a disclaimer and gernerally know what they are getting into. If this was a group of adults I would have said fine and at your own risk chaps! but it wasn't adult it was kids! I'm from the years of go do it, but sadly our poxy governments have changed all that and we sometimes have to accept it! but not like it!

 

[whitelackington]

I'm just glad i don't have to share my county or caves on a regular basis with the above who've got nothing better to do but discuss this crap, me too for reading this garbage in the first place, get off your high bloody horse's. It reminds me of an earlier thread called assholes in goatchurch, only one asshole in my eyes by the way........Obviously you lot have nothing better but goatchurch to do seen as how you're forever bumping into these so called numptys, i think it's time you guys started digging somemore holes down there.

Hi Simon, after umpteern years of digging & pauses, two kilometres plus has recently been found of linear streamway in Upper Flood Swallet by The M.C.G.

 

[Simon Beck]

Good stuff white!

 

[cap n chris]

adults can sign a disclaimer

Where did you get that strange idea from?

 

[Dep]

"Allow some foolhardy but brave soles to explore 'Goatchurch' or 'Suicide' to the limits of their abilities without the 'I know better' brigade criticising their valient efforts. Please!"

Fair comment if the individuals were adults but leading a group of "kids" come on... I too started my caving career with limited kit
but still managed to cobble together the basics, boots, jumper, boiler suit, bin bag if wet cave and later on a cag.. just borrowed and begged the rest ie helmet and lamp.  I hate the nanny state too but there is such a thing as duty of care!

What about kids leading kids - no adults present.

I spent my chilhood out and about all day long with my friemds - we did lots of dangerous things - no one died and we learnt how to dynamically risk assess - although of course we would not have realised it as such.
Had there been a cave like GC nearby we'd have been straight in there.

 

[cap n chris]

I spent my chilhood out and about all day long with my friemds - we did lots of dangerous things - no one died and we learnt how to dynamically risk assess - although of course we would not have realised it as such.
Had there been a cave like GC nearby we'd have been straight in there.

Ditto; except I had to go to get stitched up most weekends and my mate broke his neck.

 

[ian.p]

i think perhaps there is a balance to strike wth regards to kit used for caving whilst for parts of goatchurch some warm cloaths and a handlight may well be suficiant there is a point where bravery and intrepidty becomes stupidty you wouldnt say to a group of people heading into the mountains "you dont have waterproofs well i wouldnt worry about it weather looks alright at the moment" would you?the problems come when people do not realise the limitations of there equipment (city folk in high heels reach the top of snowden and start heading towards crib gough)this isnt so much the case with goatchurch but when people go to say swildons with the gear they used for goatchurch iv heard of at least one case of a party including kids being found near the twenty in teeshirts and jeens.
i beleive that helmet wearing is pritty important if only to instill the mantra of never take your helmet off underground seeing as its posibal to hire a helmet and lamp for £3.50 why not? its not that hard to find somthing thatl work secound hand builders hard hats evan a thick wooley hats better than nothing. i notice mister beck that you must have seen some merit in the wearing of a helmet as you apear to be wearing one in your avatar pic. the trouble is if the leader hasnt given any thoght to equipment whats the chances theyve given any thoght to what theyle do if somthing goes wrong. what im trying to say is that if nothing else we should be encoureging people to think about what thyre going to need and what hazerds they will encounter underground this isnt living in a nany state its commen sense.