Numptys

[Elaine]

That is sensible stuff if you intend to go caving, but if you have gone off for a walk and taken a torch so that you could look in at the entrance of a cave that you know is there, then what harm is there is popping in for a little way until you get to the top of the Giant's Staircase when you decide this is far enough. I took my two of my kids in that far with just a torch when they were 4 and 6. I knew what it was like in there and knew it wasn't particularly dangerous (slippy maybe) you can still see the entrance light, and a lot of it isn't even entirely dark.

 

[ian.p]

i would agree that for just going into the entrance of a cave and having a quick feret about you dont realy need any equipment however it seemed as thogh other examples such as the ass holes in goatchurch thread were being brought up and i do think that for caving trips that aim to propaly explore goatchurch rather than just pop into the showcave bit should require at least a little bit of thoght before being undertaken and that people who have enquired as to other cavers intentions out of concern for the other partys welfare shouldnt be critisised for doing so.

 

[andymorgan]

i beleive that helmet wearing is pritty important if only to instill the mantra of never take your helmet off underground

Why should you never take your helmet off underground? A squeeze is not a squeeze if you can keep your helmet on....

 

[ian.p]

in my opinion its a good habit to get novices into obviosly there are exceptions to the rule but thats the case with most things

 

[finster]

adults can sign a disclaimer

Where did you get that strange idea from?

mmm not sure legalities but, the point was an adult can sign their life away if they choose too a child can't.  I like I said times have changed and not for the best, may be I've been leading groups too long and have forgotton how I started which I'm sure is the same as most above.

But sadly with regards to youth groups etc it only take a few careless incidents and everyone suffers and the red tape and nanny state get worse each time!. I guess at the end of the day if you want to be a little reckelss thats fine as long as when the s@#T hits the fan they can accept it! Caving is an exciting sport and heaven forbid I certainly wouldn't want to curb anyones interest seeing as I spend most of my time promoting the sport.

 

[cap n chris]

the point was an adult can sign their life away if they choose too

No they can't.

 

[finster]

the point was an adult can sign their life away if they choose too

No they can't.

Ok may be not then! But when I ever take a child caving they have to have written permission from their parent/guardian.  Don't read into it to it so much cap n chris I was just making a metaphorical point.

 

[gus horsley]

I once agreed to take my boss underground in Tywarnhaile Mine and arranged to meet him there.  After all the conversations we'd had about caving you'd have thought he would have turned up dressed in something more appropriate than a suit and tie.

 

[finster]

I once agreed to take my boss underground in Tywarnhaile Mine and arranged to meet him there.  After all the conversations we'd had about caving you'd have thought he would have turned up dressed in something more appropriate than a suit and tie.

Well by some peoples standards on this thread he was well over dressed!

 

[Dep]

I once agreed to take my boss underground in Tywarnhaile Mine and arranged to meet him there.  After all the conversations we'd had about caving you'd have thought he would have turned up dressed in something more appropriate than a suit and tie.

Maybe he tells a similar story:
"There was this employee of mine who offered to take me underground - he'd told me loads about it, and how muddy it was and so on... but when I turned up he didn't even have an oversuit for me - bastard!"

So how have your promotions and pay-rises gone since?

 

[mrodoc]

As a contribution to this debate, when I was in Bonaire I went on a guided caving/snorkelling trip.  The first cave involved a 3 or 4 metre climb down a makeshift ladder made of reinforcing rod. We went into a low roofed bedding chamber. Other caves included short climbs. This was a paid for guided trip.  No helmets provided, ordinary clothes and hand torches. I am wondering when the first Yank who's injured will sue. The guide didn't seem to think much of my suggestion that cheap helmets would be useful on the grounds that nobody got hurt that day. These were adults in a civilised part of the world so I don't think we can moralise about the antics of casual visitors to Goatchurch.

 

[Dep]

Surely the bottom line would be how many ambulances attend Burrington Coombe and for what?
Is there a black-spot of call-outs for numpties or not. If there is then there's a problem, if there's not there isn't.

 

[Scutchamer]

Surely the bottom line would be how many ambulances attend Burrington Coombe and for what?
Is there a black-spot of call-outs for numpties or not. If there is then there's a problem, if there's not there isn't.

You're bordering on the prevention/prevention of a repeat. Do you put a speed camera outside a primary school on a dangerous road? Government logic says no, as this is not an accident black spot, parents say yes as they're breaking the speed limit and driving dangerously, does a child have to die to prove a point? For another example, how many cars have you seen cross the central reservation on a motorway? A few crashes now and again but worth the money/effort, motorways already cost £20m per mile.

Going back to the earlier point, as soon as you lead others underground your duty of care changes, I wouldn't mind doing goatchurch in jeans, tshirt on a candle but I wouldn't take someone else down there in jeans, tshirt with a candle wether it's my brother, father, child, someone elses child or friend. But also risk increases with the size of the party (probably exponentially), as do the consequences. Although realistically you cannot quantify risks, hazards or consequences.

 

[darkplaces]

Risk is good, should be encouraged. However risk is different to 'Numptys' which I take to mean, idiot people maybe leading the unknowing.

I was in Gaping Gill Sat, I saw what looked like a seasoned caver, old boy in well worn wetsuit, self build lamp on helmet various bits of belt and things hanging off. What shocked our little troop of DP'er is that for a long traverse and steep climb (eastern mud series if you know it, the chain hanging down) he has teathered him self to two other adult size people with slings 2ft long, so they were like a train, they had problems getting up the steep climb. No1 was 3-4ft higher then No3 and dragging him up causing him to wobble. We (yes c**tplaces, the danger rangers) decided this was stupid and dangerous by 3 cavers otherwise well kitted up. So really its not ways what you wear but really your approch and actions underground which defines if your a Numpty or not.

..and if someone tries to tell me this is a common safety practice I will giggle my tits off!

 

[Les W]

..and if someone tries to tell me this is a common safety practice I will giggle my tits off!

It is! Honest...

 

[Bob Smith]

I'll back Les up on this, used on mendip for years, and has been migrating slowly north for some time now. I belive it was developed as a technique by the wessex for such pitches as maypole in St. Cuthbert's and Rumble Plonk in north hill swallet

 

[mak]

I seem to recall that it was a BEC member that was leading on those climbs

 

[darkplaces]

No sorry its got to be the most stupid 'method' I'v ever seen. They really had problems climbing if one had fallen he would have taken the other two rolling down the dark deep pit behind, no substitute for proper surface training, cows tails etc. 

 

[Bob Smith]

I seem to recall that it was a BEC member that was leading on those climbs

but he learnt his techniques in the other place, not from us!!

 

[darkplaces]

I seem to recall that it was a BEC member that was leading on those climbs

but he learnt his techniques in the other place, not from us!!

Typical BEC, you would not find a proper WCC caver doing such folly  :ras: