Obscure or Obsolete Caving Terms
- Thread starter Subpopulus Hibernia
- Start date
langcliffe
Well-known member
mikem said:
Flattener is a term used by Hatt in his translation of Chevalier's Escalade Souterraines. It occurs a couple of times in the chapter describing the exploration of Grotte Chevalier. Unfortunately, I don't have the original version, so I can't check what it is a translation of. Maybe the BCA Librarian can check?
Cat flap would make more sense as a squeeze, than cat run.
Google translate relates reptation (in French) to crawling, apparently it's derived from the Latin "reptare" to creep, which is also where reptile has come from ("reptilis" creeping).
de Gennes is the Nobel winning French physicist who seems to have applied it to entangled polymer chains "moving past each other like snakes", which is a bit more recent (1970s).
Google translate relates reptation (in French) to crawling, apparently it's derived from the Latin "reptare" to creep, which is also where reptile has come from ("reptilis" creeping).
de Gennes is the Nobel winning French physicist who seems to have applied it to entangled polymer chains "moving past each other like snakes", which is a bit more recent (1970s).
They are certainly related (the Tie Press in Sidcot being longer than it is wide).
Ruckle is used twice in this northern description from 1989:
https://www.braemoor.co.uk/caving/penyghent.shtml
The difference being that there is a route through a ruckle, whilst there isn't through a choke.
Ruckle is used twice in this northern description from 1989:
https://www.braemoor.co.uk/caving/penyghent.shtml
The difference being that there is a route through a ruckle, whilst there isn't through a choke.
langcliffe
Well-known member
PeteHall said:
Mary Wilde, our esteemed librarian, has come up trumps with this. The original French in Escalades Souterraines was laminor terminal. Laminoir is the French for a bedding plane passage, so flattener is an uninformative translation.
langcliffe
Well-known member
mikem said:
I can understand your logic, but in common caving parlance, I'm not convinced. The latest Northen Caves, for example, describes the Notts II to Lost Johns' connection as: "Beyond here is involved route rising through a complex choke for 140 m to emerge at the top of boulder choke at end of Lyle Cavern High Level Series".
zzzzzzed
Member
According to Google 'flat' comes from the old Norse 'flatr'. Then I Googled it again and it said it came from the Scottish 'flet' (which could have come from the Norse I suppose).
Flatteners are used in the glass and steel making industries.
So it would be understandable for anyone who had worked in those industries to refer to a tight flatout crawl as a flattener.
That's just me guessing though.
Flatteners are used in the glass and steel making industries.
So it would be understandable for anyone who had worked in those industries to refer to a tight flatout crawl as a flattener.
That's just me guessing though.
aricooperdavis
Moderator
mikem said:
This was my understanding too; I'd expect a choke to be "choked" with boulders and therefore obstructed whereas a boulder ruckle is just... ruckled...
What happens when you find a way through a choke? Does it become a ruckle?
Down here we have Flat Holm & Steep Holm (Holm being Norse for island, although steep apparently is proto Germanic), one being wide & low, the other narrow & tall (cliffs), both have caves...
It seems that flat has come from Norse, whilst Scottish meant the floor of a house (hence its use for blocks of flats), & platform is also related, but is from Latin & French.
It seems that flat has come from Norse, whilst Scottish meant the floor of a house (hence its use for blocks of flats), & platform is also related, but is from Latin & French.
But was that route obviously open originally, or was it engineered? I agree that cavers aren't very good at differentiating all sorts of things!langcliffe said:
Duck ditch
New member
Although you might name something a hall or gallery, I?m assuming most say they have entered a chamber. Americans say a room even though it?s the same language (ish). A pit not a pitch. Has anyone in the uk called themselves a spelunker?
Flatholm or very commonly flatholmen, is a frequent island name in Norway. Always the same shape, usually with a varde on top to be helpful.
Swarth Fell near here is really Svart Fjell - Black Hill, which is obvious when you go there.
The thing about Norse names is they tend to be pretty literal. Even all the troll ones, once you believe in trolls. And who wouldn?t? All those power lines, it?s terrifying when you know the truth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLEo7H9tqSM
Swarth Fell near here is really Svart Fjell - Black Hill, which is obvious when you go there.
The thing about Norse names is they tend to be pretty literal. Even all the troll ones, once you believe in trolls. And who wouldn?t? All those power lines, it?s terrifying when you know the truth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLEo7H9tqSM
Duck ditch
New member
Aven too. Probably from mining. I thought french too but wiki says an aven in French is a swallow hole. Which then brings in swallet. Not many of those oop north.
Subpopulus Hibernia
Active member
Mining terminology is a whole other kettle of fish...Fishes said:
Duck ditch said:
I've always been intrigued by the word aven - especially since i found that in French it means a shaft, as seen from above, whereas in English usage it means a shaft, as seen from below. It's a curious inversion...
The etymology is strange too - it originally meant river in old Celtic languages. So the same root as the River 'Avon'. The word is still in use in Irish as 'abhainn', and Welsh as 'afon'. And from there to meaning swallowhole in French.
Like you I'd always assumed that the word was then borrowed from French, but is there really a case that it came into caving from an earlier mining term?
