Obtaining Surveys

[rich]

It seems to be very difficult at the moment to get hold of surveys. At the moment for example Dragon have no copies of any surveys of the major Welsh systems in stock. Individual clubs seem to always be "just about" (for about 5 years) to produce the latest and greatest version of the important surveys whereas the minor ones just go out of print.

What I was thinking of doing was setting up a website to sell surveys over the internet. The difference between my approach and the current way of doing things would be that I would store survey copies electronically and print them on demand.

The key to setting this up would be persuading the people/groups who own the copyright to allow me the right to copy and sell the surveys (for a share in the profits, naturally). The impression I get is that most groups who own the copyright don't actually make much from selling the surveys, and regard getting copies made more of a duty than anything else, so this may not be a big problem (?)

I was wondering if this forum thought this was a good idea. I'd be particularly interested in hearing from anyone who currently holds the copyright of a survey or surveys.

 

[AndyF]

Hmm thorny issue...sure you wouldn't rather stick your hand in a beehive!!!

Problem is that many surveys have never been properly "published" so no formal coyright may exist or be recorded For the large systems, many clubs or teams may have surveyed different sections. Somehow these have ended up on one large survey, but who actually has the copyright could get very heated...

There have been problems with this in the past (I can think of two, but won't reignite them here!)

It's a shame, because it's a great idea, but I think you'd have to do your homework first.

 

[rich]

Hmm thorny issue...sure you wouldn't rather stick your hand in a beehive!!!

Problem is that many surveys have never been properly "published" so no formal coyright may exist or be recorded For the large systems, many clubs or teams may have surveyed different sections. Somehow these have ended up on one large survey, but who actually has the copyright could get very heated...

There have been problems with this in the past (I can think of two, but won't reignite them here!)

It's a shame, because it's a great idea, but I think you'd have to do your homework first.

Thanks for those, some interesting points to think about.

I knew there would be plenty of cases where the copyright is a bit grey but as long as an agreement could be worked out wrt a decent number of surveys I think the site would be viable.

I had assumed that where surveys were printed and sold something had been worked out to the satisfaction of all parties.

 

[graham]

OK, talking purely about Welsh caves, the UBSS owns the copyright to published surveys of Little Neath River Cave & Porth yr Ogof.

We still sell these in reasonably substantial numbers & would not, at present be interested in joining such a scheme, though we have given permission for reproduction elsewhere on occasion.

 

[Pitlamp]

If people are members of larger caving clubs, which often have excellent libraries, access to surveys is much easier. Not only is there a good chance of what you want being in your own club library but also there are usually good links with other "kindred" clubs, which often helps you get hold of less easily available stuff. You also have better access to knowledgable people who can usually point you in the right direction for finding obscure stuff.

Just one (from a huge list) of good reasons to be a club caver.

 

[Geoff R]

Agreed belonging to a Club certainly helps. Getting surveys and general info can be difficult. I asked in the Mendips forum here if anyone could help re Rhino Rift and you can read that there was no real replies until <after> I had done it, then lots of useful tips for another alternative trip there on the right hand route.

Personally I feel that up to date published data is lacking and at best seems uncoordinated, with various past sources out of print. At least thats my experience.

Its seems a pity that some form of on-line archive does not exist.

 

[cap n chris]

Its seems a pity that some form of on-line archive does not exist.

I reckon this is just a matter of time. It may need to be a coordinated effort.

 

[graham]

Its seems a pity that some form of on-line archive does not exist.

There are a number of different issues here, from the copyright one, to the method in which data or surveys might be held online.

I suggest that you talk to/join the cave surveying group who have been talking about ways of archiving data, at least, for some time.

 

[Dave H]

Hi Rich,

Having experienced the same problems some years ago I tried to help solve the problem by creating CaveSurveys.com - not with the aim to sell surveys, but to put people in touch with the publishers in order for them to sell the survey. That way the publishers (clubs) get the money and I would get to look at lots of lovely surveys!

The surveys on the site are 'nobbled' so that whilst the extent of the survey can be examined, they are not quite good enough to use in the field. Thus allowing you to check that it is the correct survey, but then having to contact the publisher for a usable copy.

On the site at the moment are some excellent surveys from Thialand by Shepton Mallett CC, my surveys of the caves of Gozo, and Fairy Cave Quary by Cerberus SS. But after that initial burst of activity I've had no requests for surveys to be advertised on the site. This has not been helped by my being absent from the last two caving conferences, for which I applogise.

The same sort of apathy/resistance has been found (through the Cave Surveying Group) for the archiving of the raw surveying data - even when there have been options for storing but never disclosing the data!
I appreciate that people put a lot of effort into gathering this raw data and that they might feel protective about it's ownership, but unless it is archived then when they leave caving or die that information is lost to the community as a whole.

If you want to advertise your surveys on the site contact info[ at ]cavesurveys.com

David

 

[rich]

If people are members of larger caving clubs, which often have excellent libraries, access to surveys is much easier. Not only is there a good chance of what you want being in your own club library but also there are usually good links with other "kindred" clubs, which often helps you get hold of less easily available stuff. You also have better access to knowledgable people who can usually point you in the right direction for finding obscure stuff.

Just one (from a huge list) of good reasons to be a club caver.

But I am already a member of a club and I was trying to buy surveys for my club!

Anyway I was hoping to do a bit more than just sell raw surveys. For example it would be nice to be able to order a waterproof pocket-sized survey of a particular route through a cave.

 

[rich]

Hi Rich,

Having experienced the same problems some years ago I tried to help solve the problem by creating CaveSurveys.com - not with the aim to sell surveys, but to put people in touch with the publishers in order for them to sell the survey. That way the publishers (clubs) get the money and I would get to look at lots of lovely surveys!

That doesn't really help with what I think is the main problem though, i.e. of surveys being out of print.

 

[prahja]

The Miss Graces Lane survey is available from the RFDCC website to download....

Also, the Draenen grade2/3 (along with main passage grade 5) survex data is available from the OUCC site.

I personally believe that surveys should be free (both financially and in terms of data)... (of course I still have no problem with people choosing to sell their surveys - just a personal point of view).

 

[Roger W]

If I want to go hillwalking in a new area, I don't have to go blind (in the UK, that is) - I can go buy a nice OS map and see where the paths go and where the contour lines get so close that it wouldn't be a good idea to go that way. And I've spent many a happy hour doing some "virtual" walking over the map when I haven't been able to get on the fells themselves. (like sitting out here in Shenzhen with an old copy of Wainwright...)

Surely it would be good if cave surveys were similarly easily available?

Incidentally, I've also spent quite a few happy hours exploring GG with the aid of the survey in the Ingleborough Cave guide book. I know I'm too old and stiff, and definitely too fat, to get to a lot of the system in the flesh, but with a good plan and some imagination...

 

[Otter]

There is a big difference between OS maps and cave surveys in that the the producers of the maps are getting paid for it and the cave surveyors do it for nothing (and often at considerable personal cost). I don't see why they should then give either the survey or the data away.

I personally have found that for simple caves a survey is not needed and for complex caves the survey dosn't help! They are nice to look at though.

 

[prahja]

My personal view is that if you costed the effort to produce a survey, it would be incredibly expensive. If you choose to sell a survey, it is a lot of hassle (printing costs, retaining stock, distributing, etc) for little return (maybe I am just too lazy to do it !). Also, I believe that the data should be freely available so that it is not lost. I am definitely not making any judgement on others who choose to sell surveys - just saying that that is my personal view and what I choose to do....

 

[AndyF]

I personally believe that surveys should be free (both financially and in terms of data)... (of course I still have no problem with people choosing to sell their surveys - just a personal point of view).

Yep, totally agree. I think surveying is a great service to the caving community, and personally any work I've done is free to anyone who wants it.

Surveys aren't a big money spinner really, but yes, if people do want to sell, then that's fine too. I can understand if a survey has taken years and people want to recoup some of the cost..

 

[Dave H]

Surveys aren't a big money spinner really, but yes, if people do want to sell, then that's fine too. I can understand if a survey has taken years and people want to recoup some of the cost..

CaveSurveys.com just tries to put cavers in touch with the survey producers and provide a listing of all the surveys.
If the producers wish to charge for the survey then its up to them.

Surely all publishers of surveys will have retained a master copy and reproducing them in small numbers wouldn't cost too much (even my local, one room, printer/photocopy shop will do up to A0 size coppies) If the publisher didn't want to make money then they could just pass on the cost of copying and postage to the purchaser.

My personal view is that surveys have always been far too cheap to buy, and with hut fees coming into most clubs falling at the moment then any chance to help club funds should be grasped.

 

[rich]

If you choose to sell a survey, it is a lot of hassle (printing costs, retaining stock, distributing, etc) for little return (maybe I am just too lazy to do it !)

Well that is what I was offering to do for you!

 

[Roger W]

If you choose to sell a survey, it is a lot of hassle (printing costs, retaining stock, distributing, etc) for little return (maybe I am just too lazy to do it !)

Well that is what I was offering to do for you!

At least, with modern technology,we shouldn't need to have some of these problems these days. A lot of documents are available on the internet in pdf format, not a few on a pay-to-download basis.

I'm sure it would benefit a lot of folk if surveys could be made available like this.

 

[MSD]

If I want to publish something in PDF format I can happily do this myself. That's the whole thing with "self-publishing" on the internet. If I want to take payment I can channel it through Ebay and that takes care of stuff like credit cards and keeping records. A lot of people already do this for more specialist documents, for example music arrangements. Basically I can't see much room for a middle man.

On a personal level virtually everything that I have surveyed is freely available, either on the web or through a caving journal or magazine with general circulation.

Mark