one for the girls - pregnancy, kids and caving

As I bloke, I can't comment on the pregnancy side but there's no reason to stop caving because of the kids. My wife and I are both SWCC members and on a normal weekend we usually manage to get in a trip each plus a kiddy trip. Our 6 year old is quite a competent caver and can navigate (almost lead) around the entrance series of OFD II and has no problem getting down to the Trident. Our 3 year old had her first go underground about 2 months ago and rally enjoyed it, especially with big brother showing her all the sights. It's amazing how different a cave looks when you take a toddler in!

Of course, if you want to do a grown up trip together, you'll need some willing babysitters but most clubs have them in goodly numbers.



 
K

kschirrmacher

Guest
Hi
I am a rock climber and really interested in this thread!  I'm now 5.5 months pregnant and have just in the last week switched to a body harness.  I have to jumar next to lead climbers for my work (on Monday - probably leaving finding this out till the last minute).  The climbing body harness attachment point is really quite high (chest level) so I'm not sure I can use the old system (gri gri and jumar).  Do pregnant cavers still wear the same harness throughout?
A caving friend is lending me his caving harness.  I've never seen one before but it sounds like your bottom attachment point is quite low (below the bump??).
Shall I go with this or do you have any alternative arrangements.
By the way in terms of climbing through pregnancy - I still am and leading too.  I think the main issue seems to be how you feel about it.  If it feels right, go for it, if not stop.  I think really I should be toproping now, but I can't quite give in the leading.
Any comments really appreciated!
Katherine
 

SamT

Moderator
Hi Katherine...

Didn't know you and Nic were expecting - Congrats  (y)

A caving harness does have the attachment point quite low, and the croll (for ascent) ends up between your belly button and sternum.  with a chest strap to keep the croll taught and upright.

srt-fig1a.gif


Cant say this sound good for a bump.

Caving SRT setups are geared towards maximum efficiency during ascent. Are you route setting or judging in a comp.

guessing there wont be that much up and down, so a gri gri attached to the mallion on a caving harness

caverh.gif

soz for crap photo - best google could offer..

may work OK.

only problem is with a caving harness, its not really designed to hold you in if you invert - because you always have your croll and chest strap.

One compromise might be to set up with a Gri Gri. then have a chest harness, with a very short extender (or even just two krab, clipped to the rope above the gri gri which should keep you upright.

Oh well - good luck!!





 

karstgirl

New member
Hi Katherine. 
As Sam says, caving harnesses sit low, so I think they would comfortably, sit under your bump. The problem would where the croll and chest harness are.  Have you looked at what rope access workers use?  Dont they have some sort very basic seat arrangement for long jobs when a harness would be too uncomfortable?  Or, and I will duck as I say this, do any gents out there with errr.. (whispers) rather large beer bellies have any tips? Although a bump is a lot more solid and wouldnt give in the same way.

Amazing to hear of all these childrens caving trips going on, I havent noticed any tots caving before so will have to keep an eye out in future. 

I am still completely wiped out with tiredness, never thought Id feel so completely drained of all energy this early on so will not be caving, or doing anything much energetic this weekend.  Am going to sleep lots and try to refrain from hanging round mothercare looking at tiny clothes!
 

kay

Well-known member
My memory is that tiredness is worse in the early months. It gets better later on.
 

Jopo

Active member
Congrats Katherine.
Cannot offer much in the way of advice which has not been given regards caving. However there is something I can comment on. My pair got introduced to the delights of SWCC Married Quarters at a very early age and were taken caving - mainly by me as Marj had begun to lose interest (in caving not the kids). At the same time I also took an elder nephew caving. They all became satiated at a fairly young age and by the time my pair reached 13/14 they lost interest. My nephew (started at 12, lasted longer but by 22 was no longer caving). 
One of the problems my pair found was the disbelief of their contemporaries. Returning to school on Mondays full of tales of being hauled up pitches, digging, blasting, wild Sat night parties and cave rescues was a bit different to your average pre-teen experiences. Years later we found that they had stopped talking of their experiences fairly early on. We, as parents were actually approached by their teachers who asked if they were telling the truth. I know of two others sets of parents who had a similar experience.
So this is a little bit of a warning. Think about overexposure. Will not apply to all but there are not that many SWCC cavers sprogs that still cave. In the words of my son, 'being dragged caving when I wanted to build dens with the other kids' was possibly a mistake. There are, of course, notable exceptions but I reckon a tally would show that most of the little gits who infested Married Quarters through the 70-90's no longer cave - and stopped fairly young. I only have experience of the SWCC but there are many parent members who's children stopped coming to the club in their teens. I wonder how the current crop will develop.

What was undoubtedly good was the exposure they got to such a wide range of opinions, attitudes and outright weirdness. Well I think it was good for them. After all how many 7 year old's get to see the venerated club chairman washing his pink bits sitting in the kitchen sink or the President (who had been fed a 'herbal' fruit cake) dropping curry on the head of Married Quarters brats muttering, 'Bloody kids - ought to be put down!'.

Might make an interesting survey. How old were you when you became infected and how many active cavers over - say 25 - had caving parents?

Jopo
 

pete_the_caver

New member
Well done...

Time to move into the family area in your club?

My other half was one of the doctors on a large rescue at 37 weeks and was still caving at 40 weeks. I think Arwens first  OFD trip was at 5 months although she did her first Munro at about 6 weeks of age.

Image018.jpg
 

pete_the_caver

New member
Jopo said:
Might make an interesting survey. How old were you when you became infected and how many active cavers over - say 25 - had caving parents?

Jopo

Better still, How many had great grand parents who were cavers??? Arwen does
 

ttxela

New member
You should probably expect teenagers to rebel against anything you try to do with/for them  ::) It's just the way of things, possibly young Summer will decide she doesn't want to come at some point, maybe not though you never know.

The eldest certainly doesn't want to do most of the things she used to enjoy doing as a matter of principle. Often once the teenage years are out of the way they come back to things.

I'm not aware of her being disbelieved at school - her class recently had to do presentations on their outside interests and there were some pretty diverse activities being taken part in.
 

Rhys

Moderator
As well as being a father myself now, I'm an SWCC child from the same era as Jopo's kids. I was taken caving a few times as a youngster and then my parents stopped visiting the club so often - due to the distance and sheer hassle of dragging the family along, I think. However, I'd done enough to know that I loved it. Reading all the caving books in the house and the local library simply wasn't enough and at about the age of 14 I'd nagged my dad into to taking me again. I've been an active caver ever since (21 years!); my dad also re-discovered his passion for it and has remained an active caver too - he even posts here occasionally.

So, I wasn't over-exposed, but did enough for the bug to bite.

Rhys
 

Jopo

Active member
So, I wasn't over-exposed, but did enough for the bug to bite.

Precisely my point Rhys.

Better still, How many had great grand parents who were cavers??? Arwen does

Did say there were notable exceptions Pete. I think you are 'notable' - in the nicest possible way of course!!

Jopo
 

mrodoc

Well-known member
I like Jopo's account of his kids experiences and can relate to the sceptical teacher bit. 
 

Rhys

Moderator
Put your feet up karstgirl and sleep, sleep, sleep. Stock up the sleep bank as it will be a very long time before it is in the black again. Mandie
 
K

kschirrmacher

Guest
Hello
Just wanted to say a big thank you for the very comprehensive answers on harnesses.  Not sure people are so 'thorough' on ukclimbing!!  Anyway it turned out that even though the caving harness does sit below the bump, the croll is most definately in the wrong place.  So I went out with my body harness and made do.  It wasn't pleasant yesterday (because of the strain on my tummy and I was constantly having to readjust my position) and I have to do it again on Friday (for the last time) and I would not recommend it.
As for tiredness, the first 3 months are by far the worst.  I've felt great however since, but at the stage I'm at now (5.5 months) physical work isn't particularly compatible with pregancy.  I spoke to a number of instructor mothers who all said 6 months was their deadline for work.  I have set that as my deadline.  Saying that I am working beyond that time, but only standing on the ground work and much less than normal.  It's not that I'm even that big, but the general strain on my body seems quite a lot.
And for me I've only noticed climbing seems more difficult in the last 2-3 weeks...  The right climbs are way less strenuous than all of the above!!
Good luck with it!
Katherine
 

cavermark

New member
I think we were advised get a check up three months after the birth to allow the pelvis to reconnect itself etc. Obviously it depends how the birth goes (I highly recommend "hypnobirthing" ). My partner went back to trampolining after about 4 months. I'm sure gentle caving before this time would be fine if dad can look after baby between (probably) breastfeeds (2-3hrs early on) AND if you're feeling up to it!

Slings (simplest are the wrap around type) are great for attachment parenting early on and dad can do this. My daughter had lots of walks, some walk in caves, and a short ski tour in ours!
Enjoy!
 

cavermark

New member
RE. working in a harness:

I'm an access worker and can definately recommend a seat to relieve discomfort from legloops when suspended (pregnant or not) - simplest is a a bit of plywood or plank with rope or slings from each corner to a central point - where you attach your grigri. Attach yourself to the grigri with a short sling or cowstails (so if the seat breaks you don't fall). Maybe use a maillion to take the three way loading.

Another tip is have a couple of etriers or footloops that you can stand up in from time to time to adjust yourself/regain circulation.
 

karstgirl

New member
Hi all and thanks for the replies. Its encouraging to hear that life continues post kids! I'm still very very tired, and the sickness has started too, so spending most of my free time lying on the sofa trying to keep some food down, can't even consider a caving trip at the moment.  The thought of a gentle walk exhausts me!

Rhys - it must be quite cool being brought up in a 'caving family', and nice to share something that you and your dad can do together.  I think we've all rebelled as teenagers at some point, just to make a point that you're *not* like your parents! 

cavermark  - I have no idea what hypno-birthing or attachment parenting are but sure I will find all this out soon! The pelvis reconneting itsself makes me wince - presumably this means it disconnets at some point  :cautious: 
 

robjones

New member
Having come late to this thread all I can do is to echo many of the previous posters' comments.

Children accept as normal whatever their family does - so our two boys (10 and 13 now) regarded caving, climbing, a great deal of visiting castles (armed with swords, shields, halberds and crossbows), cycling, camping,  occasionally working on a steam locomotive, and participating in historical re-enactment events (muskets, cannon and blackpowder period) as normal. 'Show and tell' type sessions and dressing up for World Book Day at school saw them diverging considerably from their peers - but with a lot of street cred from peers and teacher interest for the photos they showed, the objects they took in, and the outfits they dressed up in. Gradually they came to appreciate (in a positive way) how many things they experienced that their peers did not - e.g. the younger boy is currently into the Percy Jackson film and novels and this evening wanted to play at being the Greek god of metalwork - Dad was able to dig out a blacksmith's apron, a small lump hammer, and an anvil. Result: instant satisfaction and yet another comment along the lines of 'Wow! How come you've got all this stuff? None of my friends have the real things to play with' - which enabled me to demonstrate to Mum that it IS worth Dad keeping all that junk in the garage and shed. 

Our two started caving at seven years old - the age that they seemed to me to be a suitable height and to have sufficient stamina. However, reading some other posters' anecdotes, suggests that they could have started at a much earlier age. Bernies Cafe caving shop sells good value wet socks, furry suits and oversuits to very small childrens' sizes so you could start early. They grow out of kit fast - it is useful having siblings to cascade the kit to, and friends to sell it on to when its outgrown after a handful of trips. Caving kit is also useful for muddy days in the country or in the garden.

Mum isn't a caver but the elder boy's godfather is, so there has always been two adults to take them underground. Selecting caves with suitable topography is crucial. Equally important is keeping children regularily topped up with food (sandwinches and real food, as well as chocolate etc) and drink when underground. Certainly their having real kit made all the difference to comfort and hence enjoyment and duration  of trips. By nine years old the elder boy could enjoy a six hour trip to sump two in Little Neath  and a similar length trip to Geoleogy Pot in Giant's.

The younger boy has turned out to be a pretty good and certainly a very enthusiastic climber - at nine he was making credible attempts to second Severes in trainers. Currently he's been promised rock boots if he works hard for his next violin exam. His preference is climbing rather than caving (godfather and dad are rusty but still competent) and it looks like he'll probably forsake caving after he imminently gets his Scouts caving badge as he doesn't like cold water in caves - but loves it on surface in rivers, lakes and beaches. So one child is not a guide to their siblings' prefences.

Neither of our two have yet begun to really enjoy or derive satisfaction from hill walks - as another poster observed, children don't really appreciate views. Our experience suggest keeping walks shorter than adults would necessarily enjoy, and trying for locations where there are aspects to interest children. However, last summer both made it from Pen y Pass to Snowdon summit (in rain) and down the Watkin Path (in sun), spurred on by the presence of their favourite grown-up cousin, age 18.

Children are generally easy to take away for day or weekend or longer trips when they are infants as they sleep most of the time and if you use cold water type sterlising  regieme, their stuff is easy to move and set up afresh. The arkward stage comes when they have a voice to complain about being bored and needing the loo, and have stopped sleeping for the greater proportion of long journeys. There then follows a few years when the car has to stop about once an hour for them to run around, widdle, and work off energy. Flights can be horrendous with toddlers. Sanity returns when they are old enough to enjoy story CDs on a Walkman (hint: public libraries usually stock a lot of childens' books on CD) and to read on long journeys.

A baby carrier (front sling type) iss great for walks when they still sleep most of the time - but they can easily get cold / hot / sunburnt so have a care. From about 9 or 12 months, ruucksack-type back carriers are wonderful - they really appreciate the elevated vantage point; they can still get too hot / cold / sunburnt so still have  care. Ours were lugged along long distance paths in back carriers on long day walks perfectly successfully.

As many previous posters have ruefully observed - your life will irrevocably change once children arrive. You will certainly have to make significant and major adustments, but children can take part (or be lugged along) on quite a lot of your old activities if the activities are suitably adjusted in duration / content. They will gradually form their own preferences and you will have to continue to adjust what you do to maintain a parity of your, and their, activities. We're now at the begining of the teenage years so another new phase is begining...
 
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