Pantin Technique

[Chocolate fireguard]

Hi, Chocolate fireguard, I noticed that you mentioned tandemming on here (in passing). I wonder how many cavers do, in fact, tandem pitches in Britain (I believe that it's not uncommon in the USA)?

(Maybe this should be a new thread.)

I don't think there are many pitches big enough to make it worthwhile.
I have done it a couple of times on the top half of Titan and once on the entrance pitch, but both times it was really so 2 people could warm up a bit!
Once on a Whalfe trip we had somebody who insisted on going out up the engine shaft, although she wasn't really up to it (feet swinging wildly out at each step, making only a few inches progress each time, it took ages for her even to get into the shaft proper) so I went up and arranged her footloop between her and the pitch rope with one foot each side of the rope, and then the tensioned rope kept her feet in the right position. Getting off at the top was the hard bit.

I was told that when they do it in the USA only one person climbs while the other rests.

 

[Mark Wright]

Hi, Chocolate fireguard, I noticed that you mentioned tandemming on here (in passing). I wonder how many cavers do, in fact, tandem pitches in Britain (I believe that it's not uncommon in the USA)?

(Maybe this should be a new thread.)

I don't think there are many pitches big enough to make it worthwhile.
I have done it a couple of times on the top half of Titan and once on the entrance pitch, but both times it was really so 2 people could warm up a bit!
Once on a Whalfe trip we had somebody who insisted on going out up the engine shaft, although she wasn't really up to it (feet swinging wildly out at each step, making only a few inches progress each time, it took ages for her even to get into the shaft proper) so I went up and arranged her footloop between her and the pitch rope with one foot each side of the rope, and then the tensioned rope kept her feet in the right position. Getting off at the top was the hard bit.

I was told that when they do it in the USA only one person climbs while the other rests.

Rowter Hole entrance shaft is plenty big enough to justify having two people on the rope at the same time. Its got plenty of re-belays now so no real need but back in the 80's I regularly climbed the pitch with TWO other people. 1st and 3rd climbing while the 2nd rests and vice versa.

Mark

 

[Pitlamp]

You must read and understand all the instructions for use, and get specific instruction in its use, before using it. So say Petzl; it's on the technical sheet, first page, can't miss it.

When the Pantin first came out this is exactly what I did. I've never tried such a numb technique in my life. I sold on the (little used) right foot Pantin then bought a left foot Pantin. I chucked the instructions in the recycling bin and worked it out for myself. Never had any bother since.

(Note - the Pantin is not a safety critical item; I'd not necessarily advocate the above approach with other components of my SRT rig.)

 

[MarkS]

Weirdly, Petzl used to advise against using a left-footed Pantin if you were right-handed, as it could make passing rebelays more difficult, though I still struggle to see how. Their explanation of the 'problem' was baffling, but I thought maybe it lost a little in the translation.

The theory is that your footloop and safety cord should be "on the same side" -- so if your safety cord is to the left of your chest jammer, your footloop should go on your left leg.

The "standard" French setup puts cowstails on the left, and uses the long cowstail as the safety cord. If the footloop is then on the right foot, they say the footloop "crosses the rope" at rebelays. Their recommendation is then to use two separate cowstails, with the long cowstail on the right (and threaded through the harness closure, to keep it away from the chest jammer).

I have to confess I have never quite understood this. I find it very hard to visualise the problem. Maybe I should just try it and see.

I think what they're getting at is that you should be able to pass rebelays without removing your foot from the footloop, and without removing your safety cord from the jammer. But it seems to me you can do this anyway.

If your safety cord (be it a separate one or a cowstail) is to the left of your chest ascender, and you put your right foot in the foot loop the  safety cord - hand ascender - foot loop combination makes a closed loop around the rope you are climbing, hence the (slight) added complication passing rebelays. This is very noticeable if you use a chicken/snoopy loop to keep your footloop attached to your foot.

In a nutshell, things are less likely to get tangled if your safety cord is on the opposite side to your Pantin.

 

[Mike Hopley]

If your safety cord (be it a separate one or a cowstail) is to the left of your chest ascender, and you put your right foot in the foot loop the  safety cord - hand ascender - foot loop combination makes a closed loop around the rope you are climbing, hence the (slight) added complication passing rebelays. This is very noticeable if you use a chicken/snoopy loop to keep your footloop attached to your foot.

Yes, that's what I thought the issue was -- but every time I try to imagine it in my head, it seems you are fine providing you pass the rebelay rope into your chest jammer from "underneath" the hand jammer/cowstails. Because it's not actually a closed loop, is it? To make a closed loop, you'd have to connect the end of your footloop to the cowstail attachment knot.

I think I might just be failing to imagine it correctly, hence the need to try it out and see.

 

[Chocolate fireguard]

Hi, Chocolate fireguard, I noticed that you mentioned tandemming on here (in passing). I wonder how many cavers do, in fact, tandem pitches in Britain (I believe that it's not uncommon in the USA)?

(Maybe this should be a new thread.)

I don't think there are many pitches big enough to make it worthwhile.
I have done it a couple of times on the top half of Titan and once on the entrance pitch, but both times it was really so 2 people could warm up a bit!
Once on a Whalfe trip we had somebody who insisted on going out up the engine shaft, although she wasn't really up to it (feet swinging wildly out at each step, making only a few inches progress each time, it took ages for her even to get into the shaft proper) so I went up and arranged her footloop between her and the pitch rope with one foot each side of the rope, and then the tensioned rope kept her feet in the right position. Getting off at the top was the hard bit.

I was told that when they do it in the USA only one person climbs while the other rests.

Rowter Hole entrance shaft is plenty big enough to justify having two people on the rope at the same time. Its got plenty of re-belays now so no real need but back in the 80's I regularly climbed the pitch with TWO other people. 1st and 3rd climbing while the 2nd rests and vice versa.

Mark

If you want to speed things up significantly by having two people on the rope at the same time then they both need to climb at the same time.
Alternating climbing & resting will not save any time unless those people would normally rest at intervals on that pitch, and I am sure that most SRT cavers who habitually do big pitches pace themselves to do them in one go - apart from anything else it's depressing if you have to stop part way up a pitch because you are knackered.
This seems to me only to be justified if the pitch length is much greater than anything found in UK caves, and even fit cavers would need to rest, so I doubt that having 2 people on the rope on a 70m pitch would save time unless they were willing repeatedly to exhaust themselves between rests. Or climb together of course.
But of course, there are not many big pitches now without rebelays.

Now 3 people is different, and could consistently deliver 3 people to the top in the time that it would normally take 2, even with rests.

 

[Mark Wright]

I don't think we did 3 on a rope to speed things up, it was more for fun and to save 2 people having to wait a long time in the cold.

Mark

 

[Fulk]

I recall an evening trip down Lost Johns?/John?s (?) when it was getting late and we were in a hurry to get out. My teen-aged step-daughter had gone up the Centipede Pitch and I suggested to my wife that we tandem it to speed things up. So we did, with me going first. When I reached the top I called down ?rope free?, and shortly after Miranda called out ?rope free?. ?Bloody hell, Mum?, said step-daughter, who was still within ear shot, ?You got up there pretty quick?.

 

[Ian Ball]

I recall an evening trip down Lost Johns?/John?s (?) when it was getting late and we were in a hurry to get out. My teen-aged step-daughter had gone up the Centipede Pitch and I suggested to my wife that we tandem it to speed things up. So we did, with me going first. When I reached the top I called down ?rope free?, and shortly after Miranda called out ?rope free?. ?Bloody hell, Mum?, said step-daughter, who was still within ear shot, ?You got up there pretty quick?.

 

[andrewmcleod]

Well I use a right hand ascender and a right pantin, which works fine as long as you pass the ascender behind (?) the rope at rebelays...

I also once put my pantin on the outside, rather than the inside, of my for - which is uncomfortable and doesn't work very well!

And when I tried climbing a partially loaded rope I found my pantin kept coming off and interfering with my donkey dick.

 

[JasonC]

... coming off and interfering with my donkey dick.

<viz> fnarr, fnarr ! </viz>

 

[Disgusted from Cornwall.]

I use a basic hand ascender (left) and the strap goes straight to my left foot, which is set up for 1 foot only. I use a right footed pantin. It's nice and simple and there are no tapes crossing the rope, tangles or other nonsense.

Pantins are not created equal. I have had a variety of foot ascenders inc the Brevet metal shoe thing, through the Mk1 Pantin to the small silly one. I've also had a CT and a crappy chinese one.

Once again, Petzl have managed to cock up a good product by shrinking it and the new one is sometimes rubbish (with a welly). I was coming up a 50m shaft the other day and I hadn't been utterly exact with putting it on and no matter how careful I was, the thing kept coming off (about 10 times). The CT one with the catch needed fiddling with.

The Petzl one (original) was a great piece of kit and you could (with a decent weight of rope below you) touch the rope with the catch, lift up and flip it in. Both the Brevet, the new Petzl and the CT need to you put it on with your hand, which if you are hanging in a harness and are like a massive gorilla, is quite a hassle.

Thankfully, I have sourced a nearly new old shape pantin.

The chinese ones are exactly the same shape/size as the old petzl one, apart from they only have a single stage spring (stiff) which means you lift the rope at the bottom of the pitch.

My original "green one" was utterly destroyed. I drilled the rivet out of it and took the two stage springs out, with a view to fitting them into the chinese one. This would require the drilling of two very small holes.

People with Green ones, drill the rivets out and keep the springs!