Paying for dyo

prahja

Member
You?re totally right. I hope the bca launch a campaign for all caves to have access fees. All landowners should run a power cable deep into the cave. This is essential for caver safety - any cave without mains power deep into the system is a disaster waiting to happen. To be honest, ?5 is nothing - it should be at least double or triple that (hopefully in a few years this will be the case so that we can show more gratitude).
This is a fantastic model all landowners should take note of and enforce. Cavers should be grateful and utterly condemn the days when you could enter caves without paying.
 

2xw

Member
BradW said:
There is nothing righteous about simply showing gratitude to someone else investing heavily in making access to a cave safer. Anyone complaining about this fee isn't understanding this point. Righteousness is not the opposite of ingratitude.


I said you were being righteous, not people who gratefully pay (although the latter is also weird)

Talking of missing the point, what I'm saying is that there are enormous sums of money available for this kind of work, which could have been used to avoid the decision to charge for access.

Whilst you might think splitting up cave conservation between small groups of (increasingly tired) people with increasingly dwindling budgets is a good idea (and that we should be grateful for it) it is far more time and money efficient if we approach these issues as a community.

conservation@british-caving.org.uk
 

BradW

New member
prahja said:
You?re totally right. I hope the bca launch a campaign for all caves to have access fees. All landowners should run a power cable deep into the cave. This is essential for caver safety - any cave without mains power deep into the system is a disaster waiting to happen. To be honest, ?5 is nothing - it should be at least double or triple that (hopefully in a few years this will be the case so that we can show more gratitude).
This is a fantastic model all landowners should take note of and enforce. Cavers should be grateful and utterly condemn the days when you could enter caves without paying.

Stop being silly.

The fee is not going into the owner's pockets.
The power and comms feed is to the refuge camp alone.
The refuge camp provision is impressive. Go and see for yourself. Mind you, you will have to pay for the trip but I think you will be impressed.
Increased levels and frequency and unpredictability of flooding means that good comms and some power could be the difference between surviving and becoming an unfortunate statistic.
I wonder how many here actually have a grasp of all the facts and further information beyond what the letter contains, or are you just making convenient assumptions to back up some rather dubious points.



 

BradW

New member
2xw said:
BradW said:
There is nothing righteous about simply showing gratitude to someone else investing heavily in making access to a cave safer. Anyone complaining about this fee isn't understanding this point. Righteousness is not the opposite of ingratitude.


I said you were being righteous, not people who gratefully pay (although the latter is also weird)

Talking of missing the point, what I'm saying is that there are enormous sums of money available for this kind of work, which could have been used to avoid the decision to charge for access.

Whilst you might think splitting up cave conservation between small groups of (increasingly tired) people with increasingly dwindling budgets is a good idea (and that we should be grateful for it) it is far more time and money efficient if we approach these issues as a community.

conservation@british-caving.org.uk
We are already paying more for greatly increased BCA funding of access campaigns. I wonder who is in worse financial straits? DYO cave management? BCA? the DYO access committee? Whatever, paying a bit to help in this specific case is well justified.
 

Scrappycaver

New member
BradW said:
prahja said:
You?re totally right. I hope the bca launch a campaign for all caves to have access fees. All landowners should run a power cable deep into the cave. This is essential for caver safety - any cave without mains power deep into the system is a disaster waiting to happen. To be honest, ?5 is nothing - it should be at least double or triple that (hopefully in a few years this will be the case so that we can show more gratitude).
This is a fantastic model all landowners should take note of and enforce. Cavers should be grateful and utterly condemn the days when you could enter caves without paying.

Stop being silly.

The fee is not going into the owner's pockets.
The power and comms feed is to the refuge camp alone.
The refuge camp provision is impressive. Go and see for yourself. Mind you, you will have to pay for the trip but I think you will be impressed.
Increased levels and frequency and unpredictability of flooding means that good comms and some power could be the difference between surviving and becoming an unfortunate statistic.
I wonder how many here actually have a grasp of all the facts and further information beyond what the letter contains, or are you just making convenient assumptions to back up some rather dubious points.
The rescue entrapment was installed by volunteers. The outlay was only for the armoured cable . This is powered for free by the hydro dam sponsored by a bank possibly 10 years ago. Ashford has been generous in everyway but shouldn't be expected to pay for cavers beyond the show Cave. I'm not sure where the 7k plus 2k layout comes from??
The fixed aids have not been changed since Andy freem had me banned for life.
Prior to this I had removed all rubbish and old ropes and installed the new stainless steel ladder at the rising and abyss using stainless steel bolts and canyon bolts..perhaps they need to be replaced using titanium anchors! Since then the rope has been removed on the far nth pitch to conserve the cave.
Has it really taken 14 years since myself and Joel were banned to take the decision that it's now a ?5 entrance fee ..?

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amw

New member
Just in case you want to see what the power and comms cables look like  :tease: Myself and Colin Hayward put the hauling lines through then made sure the cables were secure. We did get a free lunch at the show cave caf? for doing it, who said caving does not pay  :clap: https://youtu.be/kwvwFghqizQ
 

Scrappycaver

New member
amw said:
Just in case you want to see what the power and comms cables look like  :tease: Myself and Colin Hayward put the hauling lines through then made sure the cables were secure. We did get a free lunch at the show cave caf? for doing it, who said caving does not pay  :clap: https://youtu.be/kwvwFghqizQ
An electrician then couldn't install and Mike McCoomb and Jon Jones completed ..for free. We also blasted a route upto wigmore hall saving alot of mts of cable for free.

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prahja

Member
BradW said:
Stop being silly.

Rather than just calling names and insulting people, maybe address the points I raise? (I also never claimed that the money went to DYO so I?m not sure where that point came from. I never said the power went anywhere but the rescue dump so not sure why you mention it).

1. Are you in favour of every cave charging >> ?5 for access (as you say that ?5 is cheap) ? If not, why just DYO?
2. Are you in favour of laying power cables deep into every cave that may need a rescue ? If not, why just DYO?
3. Do you think that laying power cables helps reduce risk to cavers? If so, how ?
4. If not, why pay for it and maintain it?

You have complained about any criticism of the access fee being due to ingratitude and that ?5 is a trivial amount.
I am sure you are very honourable, grateful and not a hypocrite. If ?5 is such a small amount and you want to be grateful for rescue provision, how much do you donate for every trip you go on that has a rescue dump somewhere in the cave? Do you donate ?5, ?10, ?20 (or do you think ?20 is a small amount?) or more whenever you enter Little Neath, Otter Hole etc ? (Os is it only DYO that you feel grateful for). Otter has a phone line and a well-stocked rescue dump but does not charge people access fees and never will. Have you ever been in there and how much did you donate?

Ps I do know what is at the DYO rescue dump. I certainly do think that spending ?7000 on a rescue dump is impressive. I also think that ?7000 to stock a rescue dump is ridiculous and to lay power deep into a cave is also utterly ridiculous and needs very costly maintenance. I cant imagine any demand from cavers and I cant see that it reduces the risk of death to cavers being trapped by flood water. Personally, I am able to boil a pot of water on a camping stove without needing a kettle. Do you know what the power is for? Maybe the power is there for heating or lighting? (I?m sure electric radiators and flourescent lighting will make the rescue dump much more homely).

Personally speaking, I think charging ?5 to access a system and to justify it by criticising rescued cavers and for an unnecessary power cable may not be the best reasons to start down a slippery slope towards commercial caving. I do not think this is just "ingratitude" or ?silly"
 

Ogof anghenfil

New member
prahja said:
I think there will be a renewed digging effort  ;)
Digging is going well high on the hill above DYO. A high profile dig, Ogof Giedd, has recently found 100's of metres of passage and is closing in on a connection to DYO.

Minion said:
I?d much prefer to donate ?5 to the diggers bang fund, to hasten the connection of another entrance.
Contact Tony Baker if you would like to donate ?5 towards this dig. You would also be welcome to come along if you have a trade in plumbing.  ;)
 

2xw

Member
I wouldn't bother engaging with BradW. It's the anonymous troll account of a previously prominent, now washed out armchair caver. They're not posting in good faith and will happily misunderstand you to avoid actually having to justify their effluent.
 

Scrappycaver

New member
2xw said:
I wouldn't bother engaging with BradW. It's the anonymous troll account of a previously prominent, now washed out armchair caver. They're not posting in good faith and will happily misunderstand you to avoid actually having to justify their effluent.
[emoji106]

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BradW

New member
2xw said:
They're not posting in good faith and will happily misunderstand you to avoid actually having to justify their effluent.
The feeling is mutual, fella. I have posted as much of my thoughts as I think necessary without insulting anyone or getting over personal. So there is no need to engage further as it achieves little.

It would be "silly" to continue.
 
I agree with those above who have suggested that BCA could fund specific items for DYO which come within the scope of C&A.  BCA has funded C&A projects in other UK regions as well as in Wales in the past and present.  This is an appropriate use of national funds collected via BCA subscriptions.

I feel that caving should be free at the point of use, like countryside walking is, and so I asked the DYOCAP when the story broke why they did not seek grant aid before creating this ?5 levy, and I offered to help get external funding, so their reply is awaited with interest!  Cambrian Caving Council had not been asked to help at any stage of this.

The letter to wardens mentions paying for future hydrology research amongst other costs DYOCAP needs to meet.  But there already is a load of hydrology data collected by me in years past using my data loggers.  This historic river flow and flood pulse data was given to the show cave company for their information, and I know it was useful to assess the economics of their turbines that have since been built, because they told me so.

I did offer in more recent years to develop a system to stream live river depth and flow data out of the cave to the internet (at my expense) but I was blocked by DYOCAP for, would you believe, conservations reasons because the sensors would have to be fixed to the rock walls of the river passage at such as Pot Sump to reflect the section of the river that floods and could entrap cavers!

Interestingly, I understand there is a modern-looking submersible depth sensor in the 'river cave' under the main entrance, so it appears that such a project to collect water depth/flow data is already running and funded and the necessary gear has already been installed although in a place which is more convenient for cabling than for determing the critical depth further in.  So what is going on?

 

amw

New member
An electrician then couldn't install and Mike McCoomb and Jon Jones completed ..for free.

Not sure of your point we just put the hauling lines through the sump.  I just made a light-hearted quip about it. Lunch was at a cost of about ?5 for both interestingly ;) When I dived one morning to recover a pump nozzle (cave was staring to flood) I turned down breakfast in the caf?, so I am not all about the money  :beer:

Andrew

 

Scrappycaver

New member
amw said:
An electrician then couldn't install and Mike McCoomb and Jon Jones completed ..for free.

Not sure of your point we just put the hauling lines through the sump.  I just made a light-hearted quip about it. Lunch was at a cost of about ?5 for both interestingly ;) When I dived one morning to recover a pump nozzle (cave was staring to flood) I turned down breakfast in the caf?, so I am not all about the money  :beer:

Andrew
No criticism,  just working out where the 7k went [emoji3]

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Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
Clearly from the posts above the commercial show cave has benefited from the volunteer help and resources of cavers.  This is of mutual benefit in allowing access beyond the show cave.  Charging a fee does seem ill thought through if it puts this relationship at risk as it doesn't sound like it is really necessary when other funding routes are available. 

7k might sound a lot, and perhaps some of it was more at the wish of the management than was necessary, but that would be peanuts compared to the amounts of money a business like DYO receives from the public purse (our money).  Not just in terms of the recent pandemic, of furlough and business support grants, but also in terms of public money grants which have been available for decades and to which i am sure DYO will have benefited.

Rather than take the view of some, that cavers should be grateful for any scraps they are thrown, perhaps consider the reverse where management acknowledge the volunteer help they receive from cavers and the public purse more widely.  I'm sure there must be a better way to maintain a harmonious relationship with cavers.....

..... but then again this is Wales [throws arms in air accompanied by a deep sigh]  ;)
 

Scrappycaver

New member
David Rose said:
People have been saying that Ogof Giedd is about to connect to DyO since the 1970s...
You're getting caves muddled up Dave. Sinc y giedd and ogof giedd are not related. One is a cave , the other is a man made gravel pit.

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