Perryfoot Cave

[paul]

I agree with both T-pot and Rob on this one.

I think T-pots response was based on the fact that pipster and IanB where talking like Perryfoot was the living end, its really just a bit of a bimble, with a few tight bits. and a couple if ducks to do if you want. It does have a slightly 'disused' atmosphere. But its not as bad as they make out.

I agree with rob that there's nothing wrong with sports caving per se, join the dots if you like, cave efficiently with surveys and enjoy the cave thats there, get fit, get a good understanding for caves, then start diggin, concentrate in the right place and you should get some results.
But I agree with T-pot in that good cavers should be able use natural belays, be able to navigate sans survey etc. Practices that should really be caving basics. Its all to easy to follow the stream and the P bolts there and back (what ever arbitary point 'there' happens to be).

You are a bit argumentative, aren't you Sam? 

Caving is caving.

If you enjoy going caving just for the experience and what you see: fine.
If you are only interested in finding new cave: fine.
If you usually just get to the entrance with an estimate of the tackle you may need to get to the bottom and back and accept that sometime you just didn't bring enough - but you can always come back again another time: fine.
If you aren't confident enough to get around a system without a comprehensive equipment list, rigging guide, detailed description and survey: fine.

Who cares as long is it affects no one else and doesn't damage the cave?

 

[T pot 1]

Hi guys
The point i am trying to make is that caving is now easier than in the past
Consider the following please

1) The demise of club huts. Way back in time if one caver owned a car it was loaded to the gunnels with passengers then it left the city on a friday evening and duly arrived at a club hut where everyone stayed and caved over the weekend then a returned home on a sunday evening. But with the luxury of many of us having cars now  we leave the city on a sat/sun morning to arrive at the caves parking spot, do a descent and return back home on the same day.
2) The demise of the huts also lead to the collapse (as i see it) of the weekend social scene, each club had their prefered watering hole which was frequented by those staying in the huts over the weekend. But because of the one day cavers the social scene dropped off. Its a rare event now if you see a pub full of cavers after 19.00 hrs because its one or two pints and home for tea.
3) Sport caving as we know it today is also connected to the availability of a vehicle, two cavers per car to make a descent to the bottom and out, at Giants for instance i have seen up to 20 cars on some weekends.OK no problem with that, but again the comraderie of a club trip with maybe ten cavers caving is a rare thing today
4)Sport caving did exist way back, try Dr Jacksons, Gautries Hole, P8 then Giants Hole all in one day with ladders & lifelines carried in rucksacks which was transported by one push bike. Ride the bike for 100mtrs drop it start walking and the next to get to the bike did the same for 100mtrs dropped it and started walking, this worked well when a team of eight were all going to the same cave. Another way was to thumb a lift if no transport was available

Just a few ways that caving as changed over the years

Thanks for listening

T pot

 

[Peter Burgess]

Points 1 to 3 of what T pot says may be the case in recent years, but if the cost of living and especially fuel rises further, I think we may return to far more lift sharing or minibus based weekends, using club huts. From the South East I can tell you that this year we are starting to coordinate much more the transport to go caving for weekends. For this coming weekend in Wales, for example, we have been using our club forum to coordinate lift shares for up to 20 members. With a round trip to Wales costing something like ?50 for the more gas-guzzling members, this is a serious matter. Also with more of our money being spent on essentials such as having somewhere to live, and something to eat, what we spend on travel is critical. Fine for those who live less than an hour from the caves - your statements will hold true for the foreseeable future. A day trip to Somerset from Surrey for a bit of sport caving is now becoming the preserve of the better off members. If I am going to spend a lot of money on fuel, I want to get a full weekend's worth of caving out of it!

We seem to have strayed away from Perryfoot cave to a more generalised topic. Maybe a new thread is in order?

 

[jasonbirder]

While caving may well be easier than ever before with the advent of widely available good quality kit, P-bolted routes and good information available both in print and electronically?
How does points 1 to 4 relate to Caving being easier? They're more about the style of peoples caving trips rather than the ease or otherwise of trips
Apart from the obvious advantage of having your tackle ina  car rather than on the back of a pushbike!!!

 

[Pipster]

but if the cost of living and especially fuel rises further, I think we may return to far more lift sharing or minibus based weekends, using club huts.

I was thinking exactly the same this morning .... when I heard on the news that Unleaded Petrol may rise to ?1.50 a litre this year

We seem to have strayed away from Perryfoot cave to a more generalised topic.

Yes, its gone off-topic somewhat - all I originally asked was which bit was The Iron Maiden having been sure that I'd been through the thing... anyway, thats solved! :

And I didn't mean to make sound quite so bad either SamT! :-[ Reader Interpretation? Slight poetic license? :tease: I think it reads sporty with a few localised challenges

 

[footleg]

1) The demise of club huts.
...
2) The demise of the huts also lead to the collapse (as i see it) of the weekend social scene
...
3) Sport caving as we know it today is also connected to the availability of a vehicle
...
4)Sport caving did exist way back, ... transported by one push bike. .... Another way was to thumb a lift if no transport was available

Of course the reason people have changed the way they cave is because they prefer the alternatives now possible with the increased availability of a car. But there is still plenty of opportunity to enjoy social weekends in club huts. Just join a club which organises meets to huts. Most of the University based clubs still do, and several of these are not just for students.

Not sure about the merits of caving my push bike, but I know several people who cave in the Dales by train, walking to caves from the nearest stations around Ingleborough. However I'm sure they would prefer to spend more time underground by using a car if they had one.

 

[Rob]

Its a rare event now if you see a pub full of cavers after 19.00 hrs because its one or two pints and home for tea.

I'm sure this is not the case as most uni clubs meet up every week for a good pub session. There was about 20 of us in the Cobden View in Sheffield last night, and that's just an average weekly turnout.

Everytime we, as a club, venture outside Derbyshire there's generally +10 of us and we'll all stay in a hut for 2 nights minimum. The cars will be full, the food will be shared, and the drinks will be flowing. This is just normal uni caving. How is this soo different?

 

[paul]

1) The demise of club huts. Way back in time if one caver owned a car it was loaded to the gunnels with passengers then it left the city on a friday evening and duly arrived at a club hut where everyone stayed and caved over the weekend then a returned home on a sunday evening. But with the luxury of many of us having cars now  we leave the city on a sat/sun morning to arrive at the caves parking spot, do a descent and return back home on the same day.

I'm not sure where you get that idea about demise of club huts. As fas as I know there are as many huts in the Dales, South Wales and Mendip as there ever were. Sure, there have been closures in the Peak (Eldon and Pegasus - any more?) but there are still Orpheus and TSG huts.

We (Orpheus) have regular weekend caving trips to the Dales, South Wales and Mendip and always stay in other club huts and the majority stay for the weekend (albeit some for various reasons travel on saturday morning instead of friday night). Granted, there are more cars used nowadays but weekends away are the norm. Some members also have evening trips to local cave sand mines during the week. One or two can't make weekends for whatever reason but just go out locally during the week.

2) The demise of the huts also lead to the collapse (as i see it) of the weekend social scene, each club had their prefered watering hole which was frequented by those staying in the huts over the weekend. But because of the one day cavers the social scene dropped off. Its a rare event now if you see a pub full of cavers after 19.00 hrs because its one or two pints and home for tea.

The Helwith Bridge still gets pretty busy. We have a local pub up the road where we are usually found at the weekends when not on away trips. Many clubs which haev no hut actually meet in pubs. Maybe you just go to the wrong pubs?

3) Sport caving as we know it today is also connected to the availability of a vehicle, two cavers per car to make a descent to the bottom and out, at Giants for instance i have seen up to 20 cars on some weekends.OK no problem with that, but again the comraderie of a club trip with maybe ten cavers caving is a rare thing today

Of those 20 cars I bet they belong to various groups of cavers caving together. It isn't unusual to find a group of 8 or 9 cavers driving to and from our hut to caves in the Peak in 3 or 4 cars for example - including visiting groups. Sure, there are more cars around nowadays - in the past we used to tray and fill up whatever cars were available or use vans or minibuses but just because there are quite a few cars it doesn't mean they belong to a load of individual pairs or threes of cavers.

4)Sport caving did exist way back, try Dr Jacksons, Gautries Hole, P8 then Giants Hole all in one day with ladders & lifelines carried in rucksacks which was transported by one push bike. Ride the bike for 100mtrs drop it start walking and the next to get to the bike did the same for 100mtrs dropped it and started walking, this worked well when a team of eight were all going to the same cave. Another way was to thumb a lift if no transport was available

Yes, transport is much easier nowadays - you'r right there!

 

[Stoney Boy]

I know Caving got a lot easier once people got rid of beards.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I know Caving got a lot easier once people got rid of beards.

You mean when all the wimps incapable of growing a beard took up caving.  :-\

 

[zomjon]

I expect there have been a few more hut closures in the Peak than you know about Paul. I definitely know that C & C had the barn at the back of the George in Alstonfield, which ended in the late 90s. And I'm sure that there was a hut in the Manifold that was lost and I think WMCEG had a hut somewhere in that area. Though the Dafar boys seem to be setting themselves up nicely in their new Manifold base (not really a hut though!)

 

[jasonbirder]

Different times?different ways of going about things?I know that if the only trips I could make were long Friday to Sunday boozy weekends?I wouldn?t get a great deal of caving done!
As it is?like a lot of guys with families?kids?demanding jobs etc etc I manage to mix and match my caving with mid-week trips, day trips and when I am lucky enough a weekend away with the club (a few times a year)
Does this make me less of a caver?Is ?real? caving top be restricted to single guys and students?
Besides how good is it that I can decide at a few hours notice that I have some time free and I fancy a trip in Derbyshire?Mendip?Wales etc ring up a mate or relative or two?then away I go?rather than be governed by a meets list someone else agreed a year in advance?

 

[Peter Burgess]

There's nothing to stop a club caver doing exactly the same thing.

 

[Cave_Troll]

club cavers can do all that.
they can also borrow the clubs 100m rope and a helmet and lamp cuase they've left there's in the chapel ...

 

[jasonbirder]

But the posting wasn?t about being a member of a club?it was about mass car ownership and ease of travel to and from caving areas?(which isn?t incompatible with Club membership or club trips)?and its impact on the style and philosophy of caving trips?

 

[Pitlamp]

Just as an aside (and not necessarily to support or disagree with any poster above) three former Peak District huts which sadly are no more are the SUSS hut at Rowter Farm, the Eldon emporium in Buxton and the Pegasus hut at Peak Forest. Each was unique in its own way and all are sadly missed!