Perryfoot Cave

[Pipster]

Which obstacle in The High Road is actually called "The Iron Maiden" squeeze? It's described in CCOTPD as "very, very tight" but it fair to say that there are numerous tight bits along The High Road! 

After "The Rack", you reach a junction with two ways on where taking a right leads into "The High Road"...

• After a very short climb up (where a syphon pipe leads from a duck/sump) it doubles back and enters a duck. On your back, helmet off, with your mouth to the roof,  8) takes you through the duck where an easy squeeze out the other side takes you into something a little bit more spacious - giving room to turn around.
• If you continue crawling you reach a body-width-sized water-smoothed fissure which you can stand up in. The way on is a hole just above head height and it all looks awkward. With a lot of thrutching about upwards and through the tight eyehole, it becomes apparent that the way on is head-first back down the other side - again tightish with boulders ahead giving little scope for direction. Going back this way is equally as awkward - head-first looks quite daunting unless you don't mind broken teeth and/or a bloody nose(!) - and feet-first is extremely difficult to get into position; after 15 minutes of restricted squirming around I managed the latter! In hindsight head-first might have been easier (but was saving that as a last resort option). Is this obstacle called The Iron Maiden?
• Beyond, another tight squeeze is passed by laying on your side where you enter a short hands and knees crawl and an increasingly calcited floor. What this squeeze The Iron Maiden?
• Continuing ahead, just before the passage closes down, a hole on the left hand side drops into a lower passage. Once again, its tight and a little awkward to get through. You land sitting in water, feet-facing a duck which was similar to the one encountered earlier but nearly twice as long. Was the squeeze through the floor The Iron Maiden?

That's as far as I got... beyond the airspace it appeared to bit more spacious (but exactly how much and for how long I couldn't tell) and a calcited floor can be seen rising out of the pool.

Having left my fellow caver before the awkward climb-eyehole-drop feature, faced with another unappetising duck, and unsure if the passage sumped beyond (it was sumped the last time I visited from the easier alternative route) I decided to retrace my steps instead.

So the questions are...

Was one of the features/squeezes I encountered "The Iron Maidon"? (If i was to guess, it would be the climb-thrutch-eyehole-drop obstacle)

How far from Boulder Pot was I? (I have a sneaking suspicion I was quite close, and that it was possibly on the other side of the second duck/sump somewhere)

:-\

 

[SamT]

We encountered similar naviagational difficulties on our trip there, I think the old COTPD description must be well inaccurate and out of date.

There was some discussion on the forum last year...

 

[Pitlamp]

The position of the Iron Maiden squeeze is marked on the full page survey of the cave in Dave Elliott's "Caves Of Northern Derbyshire" guide (part 3: Perryfoot / Coalpithole, May 1975), opposite page 17. (This series of guides is still extremely useful for caves on Rushup Edge and the plateau to the south.) It's out of print (sadly) but it's available in decent caving club libraries.

 

[Pipster]

Pitlamp : Thanks for the info - will check it out at the club.

SamT  : Yeah, I did a search through the forum and unless I miss-read something it doesn't mention anyone actually completing The High Road or The Iron Maiden. Theres a couple of reference to The Iron Maiden - but mostly lack of finding it. The threads seem to be more about the connection to dr jacksons.

I've just had a brain wave - and good old wikipedia has convinced me that its the body-width-sized water-smoothed fissure which you can stand up where the way on is above, through a tight hole at head height, and immediately back down the other side head-first with your arms-in-front...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_maiden_(torture_device)
(the picture of The Iron Maiden on wiki roughly shows the same size/shape of the obstacle I've described too, with head being the hole you need to get through)

And from wikipedia (with some modifications)...

An The iron maiden is an iron ROCK cabinet built with wood or iron LIMESTONE, and usually has a small closable opening CRAWL INTO IT so that the torturer CAVER can interrogate their victim THEMSELVES and torture or kill a person THEMSELVES by piercing squirming and thrutching the body with sharp objects (such as knives, spikes or nails) , while he or she is forced to remain standing.

Case solved I think! 

 

[underground]

The position of the Iron Maiden squeeze is marked on the full page survey of the cave in Dave Elliott's "Caves Of Northern Derbyshire" guide (part 3: Perryfoot / Coalpithole, May 1975), opposite page 17. (This series of guides is still extremely useful for caves on Rushup Edge and the plateau to the south.) It's out of print (sadly) but it's available in decent caving club libraries.

I saw one of the very same for sale on eBay earlier, if anyone wanted one... (nowt to do with me by the way)

 

[Rob]

An The iron maiden is an iron ROCK cabinet built with wood or iron LIMESTONE, and usually has a small closable opening CRAWL INTO IT so that the torturer CAVER can interrogate their victim THEMSELVES and torture or kill a person THEMSELVES by piercing squirming and thrutching the body with sharp objects (such as knives, spikes or nails) , while he or she is forced to remain standing.

Case solved I think! 

    :bow:

 

[ianball11]

I can say with some confidence that Perryfoot is the least enjoyment of caving I've had, spiders, bits I struggled to fit through before arriving at the 'tight' bits and a general no idea where I was going feeling.

I much prefer an active stream cave.  Partly because Perryfoot really had the atmosphere of an undiscovered place.  If I had a mishap down P8, someone would bobble along sooner rather than later and be able to help.  Nothing like that down Perryfoot, apart from the sump bailing kit and things like that it felt as though no one had been there for years.  It was a weird, un-nerving feeling.  Sounds silly now but back then flat on my back with my nose scrapping on the roof, I didn't really feel too happy. 

It made other trips seem so much easier though,  :

Ian B.

 

[Pipster]

Yes, it certainly does have a more serious and committing feel to it. Its one of those which I think you appreciate more afterwards then when your battling your way through...

And I think I've realised now where I'd got to on in relation to Boulder Pot... very close indeed:
http://www.peakcavemonitoring.org.uk/images/stories/Castleton/dr%20jacksons%20and%20perryfoot%20caves.doc

Just required the 2nd duck I reckon.

 

[T pot 1]

Whimpsevery one of you !!
How do you think we caved before cave descriptions were writen down ?
A saying springs to mind -- If you aint hard enough, you shold'nt have come
Try doing a cave with a bag of tackle, use natural belays and bottom it out
forget the namby pamby 'P' hangers & get on with it
bring caving back to being the original challange & treat the cave as you are the first to descend it 

 

[Peter Burgess]

Whimpsevery one of you !!
How do you think we caved before cave descriptions were writen down ?
A saying springs to mind -- If you aint hard enough, you shold'nt have come
Try doing a cave with a bag of tackle, use natural belays and bottom it out
forget the namby pamby 'P' hangers & get on with it
bring caving back to being the original challange & treat the cave as you are the first to descend it 

Quite right. Have you been reading Allan Jeffreys article in Descent 200?

 

[ianball11]

You choose not to read a survey or use pbolts when you go caving because they make caving too easy?

Ian B.

 

[T pot 1]

Tooooooooooooooo right ian bring back red spots, manky rope slings, wooden stakes, scaffold bars & electron ladders




T pot

 

[Pipster]

Whimpsevery one of you !!
How do you think we caved before cave descriptions were writen down ?

I'm not 100% sure where your going with that!  :-\ Certainly I can understand where you might be heading, but I think you've misunderstood the context in this instance. I don't think anyone mentioned caving inch by inch using a description (and/or survey). We went in not really knowing what lay ahead, explored it, and discussed afterwards where we'd been and what we'd seen (as I'm sure everyone does); sometimes to make a bit more sense of the place, or to decide what extra kit we'd need on a return trip to reach somewhere of interest.

Surely reffering to a book post-trip is like talking to another person who's been down there before. Even before books (and the internet), people must have discussed caves, and thus gained some extra knowledge of a place, either pre or post trip? Did people not discuss caves vocally before caving books were available? Did people who hadn't been down a particular cave refuse to go on a trip with someone who had already been there - just incase someone mentioned said "its that way" or something that could serve as a description of something? In some respects I'd suggest that there isn't a difference.

Try doing a cave with a bag of tackle, use natural belays and bottom it out

Done that....  do that. 

& treat the cave as you are the first to descend it

I guess there are many different aspects to this... I would imagine that a lot of people treat caves in this way... the obvious exception being making use of non-natural anchors!

bring caving back to being the original challange

Sadly I wasn't around "back in the day" so I can't really comment - but can you not make it "the original challenge" still if you wanted too?

A saying springs to mind -- If you aint hard enough, you shold'nt have come

heh.
I'll get my coat caving suit.

 

[Rob]

Whimpsevery one of you !!

Possibly true, although there's no harm in giving it ya best...

How do you think we caved before cave descriptions were writen down ?

Slowly and inefficiently?

A saying springs to mind -- If you aint hard enough, you shold'nt have come

Another saying springs to mind - If ya don't try, you'll never learn.

Try doing a cave with a bag of tackle, use natural belays and bottom it out

Try doing a cave with minimal kit, fast and efficienly, bottom it out, then go and do the other two deepest trips in Derbyshire, all in one day. Bet you can't do that on ladders!

forget the namby pamby 'P' hangers & get on with it

Use the namby pamby 'P' hangers & stop living in the past, there's more important things to be concentrating on.

bring caving back to being the original challange & treat the cave as you are the first to descend it 

Put enough time into efficient caving and exploration & you might find something in UK that you can be the first to descend, rather than just pretending you are.

 

[Peter Burgess]

How do you think we caved before cave descriptions were writen down ?

Happily?

A saying springs to mind -- If you aint hard enough, you shold'nt have come

You can get pills for that sort of thing nowadays.

Try doing a cave with a bag of tackle, use natural belays and bottom it out

Why not? Try anything once! Is it fun?

forget the namby pamby 'P' hangers & get on with it

A cave isn't worth doing if you can't make a nice picture by joining up the dots.

bring caving back to being the original challange & treat the cave as you are the first to descend it 

As you get older, all caves seem like the first time.

bring caving back to being the original challange & treat the cave as you are the first to descend it 

As you get older, all caves seem like the first time. {didn't someone just say that?}

 

[Pipster]

Whimpsevery one of you !!

Possibly true, although there's no harm in giving it ya best...

How do you think we caved before cave descriptions were writen down ?

Slowly and inefficiently?

A saying springs to mind -- If you aint hard enough, you shold'nt have come

Another saying springs to mind - If ya don't try, you'll never learn.

Try doing a cave with a bag of tackle, use natural belays and bottom it out

Try doing a cave with minimal kit, fast and efficienly, bottom it out, then go and do the other two deepest trips in Derbyshire, all in one day. Bet you can't do that on ladders!

forget the namby pamby 'P' hangers & get on with it

Use the namby pamby 'P' hangers & stop living in the past, there's more important things to be concentrating on.

bring caving back to being the original challange & treat the cave as you are the first to descend it 

Put enough time into efficient caving and exploration & you might find something in UK that you can be the first to descend, rather than just pretending you are.

Precisely  

 

[bat]

Whimpsevery one of you !!
How do you think we caved before cave descriptions were writen down ?
A saying springs to mind -- If you aint hard enough, you shold'nt have come
Try doing a cave with a bag of tackle, use natural belays and bottom it out
forget the namby pamby 'P' hangers & get on with it
bring caving back to being the original challange & treat the cave as you are the first to descend it 

So if you have an acceded would you like the rescue party to use the same approach and  old fashioned rescue tectonics as well

 

[Peter Burgess]

I see you use the spoll chucker!

 

[bat]

not very well it would appear.

 

[SamT]

I agree with both T-pot and Rob on this one.

I think T-pots response was based on the fact that pipster and IanB where talking like Perryfoot was the living end, its really just a bit of a bimble, with a few tight bits. and a couple if ducks to do if you want. It does have a slightly 'disused' atmosphere. But its not as bad as they make out.

I agree with rob that there's nothing wrong with sports caving per se, join the dots if you like, cave efficiently with surveys and enjoy the cave thats there, get fit, get a good understanding for caves, then start diggin, concentrate in the right place and you should get some results.
But I agree with T-pot in that good cavers should be able use natural belays, be able to navigate sans survey etc. Practices that should really be caving basics. Its all to easy to follow the stream and the P bolts there and back (what ever arbitary point 'there' happens to be).