• CSCC Newsletter - May 2024

    Available now. Includes details of upcoming CSCC Annual General Meeting 10th May 2024

    Click here for more info

Petzl Stop Poll

Question 1. How did you learn to use your Petzl Stop descender?

  • A training course with a professional instructor?

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • On the surface advised by another caver?

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Underground advised by another caver?

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Self-taught with practice on the surface?

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Self taught underground without practice on the surface?

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
  • Poll closed .

Stu

Active member
Oh for sure to bottom belay you've got to be right on the game with it. Thinking that you have a novice/nervy abber would hopefully hone the mind.

The marines get recruits to free fall on the ab hands on head and there oppo's just haul on the rope like demons to arrest the fall. Works very well....thankfully.

It's just another trick really.

I have to say I think correct "training" above ground with a steady progression through a whole scheme of less obtrusive safety methods with emphasis placed on pro's and con's of the device, would hopefully alleviate potential problems.

Being judgemental for a second, the "here's a Stop - there's the pitch - go to it" approach is a bit blase.

Very interesting thread.
 

Andy Sparrow

Active member
I have to say I think correct "training" above ground with a steady progression through a whole scheme of less obtrusive safety methods with emphasis placed on pro's and con's of the device, would hopefully alleviate potential problems.

Being judgemental for a second, the "here's a Stop - there's the pitch - go to it" approach is a bit blase.

can't argue with that...
 

potholer

New member
As MSD says, climbing up a little from the pitch-base is useful, and often quite safe and easy.
As an alternative to clipping in, holding the rope firmly but without tension with arms stretched upwards is another possibility - as long as the grip is maintained one can either jump off the ledge/boulder, or pull using the arms, (or both) and the result should be sufficient tension (assuming the pitch-head supervisor has made sure the novice has threaded their descender correctly and checked for controllability before removing their long cowstail).
Similarly, for low-stretch pitches, even standing up at the pitch base with a high grip on the rope may be sufficient, if either pulling with the arms or sitting down would generate enough tension to brake the descending novice. If *any* muscle action causes a desired effect, it's easier to do in rapid-reaction situations.

It could certainly be difficult to distinguish between a rapid (or even normal) descent and a plummet, but the many beginners I've seen tend towards being very slow abeseilers, so a transition to uncontrolled descent would probably be pretty easy to stop.

The slipknot does sound like a very good alternative, which I'll certainly bear in mind.
 
C

cucc Paul

Guest
The problem with tieing a slip not is it only works at the bottom in my accident i didnt hit the deck but done the damage to myself mid pitch on some ledge or rock, some thing hard at any rate, if your going to put in so many extra precautions wouldn't it be worth while setting up some form of belay instead which wont take any longer for an experienced rigger to set up and you can feel the rate of decent and stop the "novice" before they get the chance to do any real harm to them selves. If this requires extra ropes make them carry it... its for their benefit and will be character building. :b
 
C

cucc Paul

Guest
The problem with tieing a slip not is it only works at the bottom in my accident i didnt hit the deck but done the damage to myself mid pitch on some ledge or rock, some thing hard at any rate, if your going to put in so many extra precautions wouldn't it be worth while setting up some form of belay instead which wont take any longer for an experienced rigger to set up and you can feel the rate of decent and stop the "novice" before they get the chance to do any real harm to them selves. If this requires extra ropes make them carry it... its for their benefit and will be character building. :b
 

Andy Sparrow

Active member
I would suggest there are four methods of protecting an inexperienced abseiler:
a. Lifeline - Not commonly used during SRT training but still an option. Very quick and easy to install and operate from a pitch head rigged for SRT.
b. Bottom Anchor - Requires a caver at the pitch bottom to apply additional braking by pulling down hard on the rope. This is effective on the upper sections of Longer pitches but requires a very quick reaction if the abseiler loses control near the pitch-bottom and may result in the abseiler landing heavily on the 'belayer'.
c. Pitch Bottom Knot - The caver at the pitch bottoms ties a simple knot above head height on the abseil rope and then unties the knot when the abseiler is a short distance above it. This very simple and effective measure will prevent death or very serious injury.
d. Lowered Loop - A caver at the pitch head gathers up the rope and pays it out as the abseiler descends keeping a metre or so of slack rope below the abseiler. If the abseiler loses control the caver paying out the rope simply holds it tight with both hands easily applying enough pressure to stop the abseiler’s descent. This is my preferred system as it allows supervision of the trainees from the pitch head and does not require additional rigging or equipment. It does require surplus rope equal to the length of the pitch or for another rope to be connected to the rope end by a simple knot.
 

Stu

Active member
Interesting that the loop method is your favourite as you acknowledge extra rope is required. My choice is extra rope as the abseil rope on a releasable system so those hair/clothing/finger jams can be dealt with. The rope for SRT is then used as a lifeline.

I can see that each method would probably be used in a progressive manner; the loop coming some where near the end of the spectrum with either the knot or bottom anchor at the end.
 
D

darkplaces

Guest
All sounds a bit over engineered.
Second safety rope belayed by an experianced person with the instructor with or controlling the activity (not part of it). With the Leaver disabled with a krab, then once the instructor deams capable replace the safety rope with the use of the leaver, initally using both once or twice to get the feel of it. Keep it simple and I perfer a standard safety model.

Oh yeah and its the students job to carry the extra rope and equipment.
 

Stu

Active member
c**tplaces said:
All sounds a bit over engineered.
Second safety rope belayed by an experianced person with the instructor with or controlling the activity (not part of it). With the Leaver disabled with a krab, then once the instructor deams capable replace the safety rope with the use of the leaver, initally using both once or twice to get the feel of it. Keep it simple and I perfer a standard safety model.

Oh yeah and its the students job to carry the extra rope and equipment.

Which bit sounds over engineered?

Don't see how this is simple. You're using two different modes to instruct - lever disabled; lever enabled. If the aim is to instill in people the safe use of a Stop, I would suggest that all learning with disabled lever is redundant, as what is needed is safe descent using the lever enabled - this is after all, the aim and objective.
 
D

darkplaces

Guest
Andy's Option A to me is the correct way to train SRT.

b) is downright silly, now two cavers are hurt. The Marines might do it but to them the objective isnt about how to train absailing, they are teaching courage and reliance and trust in your team mates, we are doing something different, we are training to be reliant in yourself and your kit.

c) Even though the knot might be a few feet/meters above ground its still an IMPACT within the harness and could result in a hung up caver because you cant go down (due to the knot now buried in what ever its lodged in) the only way to get the caver out is pulling up, remember harness's can kill too.

d) is the one holding the rope him/her self attached to anything else, ie is the falling caver going to yank the one holding the rope off the top or more likly yank the rope from the hands.

I would suggest that all learning with disabled lever is redundant, as what is needed is safe descent using the lever enabled - this is after all, the aim and objective.

Not really the objective is to create the idea that the leaver is not part of the control system. Its a last ditch/safety rope replacement(ish) and that control is gained from holding the tail.

I think the clutch and plummet problem is cause by people's reliance on the lever. Just get the simple idea in someones head, "let go with the right hand and you die". If you grab the leaver and your still holding the tail of the rope your still not going anywhere.
 

Stu

Active member
c**tplaces said:
Andy's Option A to me is the correct way to train SRT.


I would suggest that all learning with disabled lever is redundant, as what is needed is safe descent using the lever enabled - this is after all, the aim and objective.

Not really the objective is to create the idea that the leaver is not part of the control system. Its a last ditch/safety rope replacement(ish) and that control is gained from holding the tail.

I think the clutch and plummet problem is cause by people's reliance on the lever. Just get the simple idea in someones head, "let go with the right hand and you die". If you grab the leaver and your still holding the tail of the rope your still not going anywhere.

The aim is to use a piece of equipment correctly during descent. I don't dispute that using the lever to control descent is incorrect. Which is why I'd suggest teaching the use of the Stop in the context that most errors occur in - clutch and plummet. You can repeat until you're blue in the face about not letting go but to actually learn; to build up those synaptic connections; to actually know something, one has to get stuck in and do it. This is where the progressively less invasive methods of safety "netting" come into it.
 
D

darkplaces

Guest
Cool, I shall disaggree Mr stu.
I just dont like the squeezeing the leaver and the mind thinks 'hey, my hand is getting tired, if I just give this a little squeeze I dont need to grip this end so much' ZZZZIIIPPPPPPPPP BANG! - I'v heard that sound and I'v seen someone hit the ground...
 

Stu

Active member
Mr stu's my dad....I'm plain ole stu!

I don't fully understand what you're position is. My inference is that you would prefer a disabled lever descent because then you know what to let go of and what not to let go of. My particular comments were aimed at the problem of clutch and plummet if novices are to be taught use of Stops with the lever enabled.


So we don't even need to disagree!!! :D
 
D

darkplaces

Guest
Oh yeah ole stu.
I say smack them with raccoons if they think they can ease up the grip on the rope. I think we lack raccoons in our caves, we shall have to smack them with bats!...! (that will p1ss off the bat people)
 

potholer

New member
b) The safety of bottom belaying depends very much on how you do it. If you're just standing directly under the rope, holding it loosely with lowered hands, and paying occasional attention to the person above, you're asking for trouble.
If you're in a situation where almost any action you take will tighten the rope - standing a bit above pitch bottom, firmly holding rope high up, keeping absolute minimum slack, taking up slack as novice descends, mentally rehearsing the appropriate actions (pull down, sit down, jump off ledge, etc) - and paying attention, you're on much safer ground.

The *alternative* bottom belay technique can simply be to almost-tension the rope at a significant angle, standing some way off from the pitch bottom. Due to the geometry of the situation, as the caver descends, the total distance from pitchhead->novice->you increases, so you have to *pay out* rope to avoid them slowing down, rather than *taking up* minor slack as in the directly-below situation. If you have a decent safe stance, or there's a convenient hanger to attach a crab to run the rope through, it's a pretty safe setup - the more they descend, the tighter the rope gets, and it may be easier to see what's happening than may be the case with pitchhead lifelining. It's a little like the 'loop' method, though slightly 'unrolled', and with the option of more progressive braking.
Obviously, the relative weights of novice and belayer may come into the equation, but aren't terribly hard to allow for when just using bodyweight for the sideways pull. With a 20-stone novice, I'd probably try something else.
In practice, even a 'regular' bottom-belay may well be sideways enough to require paying out rope, rather than taking it in.

c) With a knot in the rope, the very worst-case scenario is an impact somewhere below fall factor 1, depending how much energy is lost to friction during the clutch and plummet, and how far down the descent starts to go wrong. In most conceivable cases that will be rather better than hitting the deck, *even* with the occasional minor complication of possibly having to instruct someone in doing a changeover, or climbing up to give them a short self-rescue if they are somehow rendered incapable. Hauling them up the pitch seems unlikely to be necessary except in pretty rare circumstances.
As a simple alternative to doing nothing for someone judged not to need actual lifelining, but still a partial novice, it makes a deal of sense to at least consider.


d) With the 'loop' method, I can't imagine anyone bothered enough about safety to lifeline someone down a pitch and yet standing at the top without clipping in their cowstails.
With the descender acting as a pulley (giving a 2:1 mechanical advantage), and also providing extra friction as soon as there was *any* tension on the 'lifeline' side of the loop, I'd assume that holding a caver would be fairly easy if you hadn't given them more than a small potential distance to fall.
Presumably the people who use that method could offer their experiences?

If *really* paranoid about letting the rope slip, it'd be possible to tie off the lifeline side of the loop so the novice would *still* be left dangling a couple of metres off the deck even if the lifeliner just let go, and/or use a stitch plate or similar.

We aren't the Marines, and *ultimately* we are training for competence and self-reliance, but the idea is how best to help people safely cover their first few steps. Once they can be seen to have mastered basic speed control, and not be so scared they clutch at anything and everything, or so foolhardy as to try descending at a speed they can't cope with, the stabilisers can come off the bicycle.
 
D

darkplaces

Guest
"the stabilisers can come off the bicycle." I like that lol...

The safety rope, belay idea is more common in climbing. I havent seen climbers use anything else really. Does that mean its tried and tested! Does climbing with ropes have a longer history then ropes in caves?

The knot idea still doesnt sit well. Ok so its stopped the caver, someone else climbs up the rope. The knot is now holding up a 14 stone caver and you need to lift that caver while on the rope yourself and the fallen caver might be uncon. you have to account for that. You have to untie the knot. Next you have to lower the caver down which is the easy bit out of all of that. Is that a basic idea of what you have to do?

I think if anyone is up for it they should try it. Not dropping meters just a few feet from the ground and report on how easy it was to get the 'casualty' back on the ground.
 

potholer

New member
Even if the knot goes into the braking crab and gets caught up, once unloaded it should be fairly easy to undo. If the falling caver hit a knot hard enough to end up unconscious, they're probably still better off than having hit the ground.

Lifting an uncoscious caver a short distance up a rope and then descending with them is basic self-rescue, and really should be something people are capable of if they are instructing other cavers in ropework.
What would you do if someone just panicked mid-rope on descent or ascent and refused to move?

In practice, climbing up the rope to get past the caver seems fairly likely to pull a slipknot open even if it *was* jammed. In that situation, (or when no particular jamming actually happened, you just need to climb up, attach yourself to the novice, hang off them, remove jammers and abseil down using their descender.

Regular self-rescue is a little more complicated, but still not rocket science.

Faced with someone unconcious who I couldn't possibly lift, but who was close to the pitch-base, various possibilities spring to mind for lowering them (or dropping them in stages) given a few metres of rope tail, a full SRT kit, and a knife, without having to actually lift them at all, and maybe even whilst still standing on the ground or a ledge.

Self-rescue techniques are something really worth learning and practicing. Even when a regular technique isn't appropriate, you'd have some idea of what might be bodgeable.

In any case, we're still talking 'better than hitting the pitch bottom, with the chance of 'complications', rather than a simple undo-the-slipknot being fairly rare. - most of the times the system actually prevents a serious injury, it won't cause any problems at all, and even when it did, they shouldn't be beyond the ability of an SRT leader to sort out.
 
C

cucc Paul

Guest
i've used the loop method with a novice on a figure of 8 simpler than a stop i know with regards to clutch and plumit but she still managed to muck up panicked and let go of everything it worked really well and it was easy to lower her to the floor, by just holding the rope with a body belay. Although this wasn't in a cave so carrying extra rope wasn't to much of a problem.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
IMO this thread is worth turning into a training article! - there's loads of thought going in to this topic and numerous angles and viewpoints. All good stuff.
 

Stu

Active member
The slip knot method has been "tested" in as much as myself and another instructor went out did increasingly longer and faster "falls" up to a height of about 3 metres or so - we didn't have the bottle for any higher which isn't an indicator the system was flawed, just we are wimps. We did feel though that we were probably reaching a "terminal velocity" when we hit the knot so it was probably a fair indicator. Sticking the foot jammer on the rope and standing up on it was enough to undo it on every occasion. Easier IMHO than a full on knot on the bight.

Again, it's not a perfect system or one that would be used all the time - it's another tool.
 
Top