Petzl Stop Poll

[Fred]

Been reading the topic with interest. I use a Stop most of the time only occaisionally getting my rack out for particularly caves.

I know of 2 accidents with Stops, among the people I have caved with, both "clutch and plummet". These both happened above ground at a training wall (5m pitch) and both were experienced vertical cavers.

A question about Stop versus Bobbin/Rack - do people who use the latter generally use both hands on the rope to control their speed? (Obviously can't do this with a Stop). Also is using both hands a good idea with such devices and is it recommended by the manufacturer/trainers?

 

[MSD]

I fully agree that there has been a lot of interesting stuff in this thread. It's certainly given me a few tips and ideas. After 20 odd years in the game you can feel that you know everything, but it ain't so. It's even encouraged people to go out and perform experiments and report back the results, which is excellent.

The idea of an article is great. Many of the ideas discussed here are relevant and important to the wider caving community. I vote that Andy (who started this thread) tries to summarise all of this discussion and write it up. Over to you Andy!

 

[kay]

I vote that Andy (who started this thread) tries to summarise all of this discussion and write it up. Over to you Andy!

hey, that's not fair :wink:
He's a brilliant teacher but he's a busy guy.

If it was all put together into one article, where would it be published? Is there scope to have articles on here? Would it be something worth submitting to Descent? - you'd have to acknowledge a long list of contributors!

 

[Andy Sparrow]

Lifting an uncoscious caver a short distance up a rope and then descending with them is basic self-rescue, and really should be something people are capable of if they are instructing other cavers in ropework.

Yes, in an ideal world it should be, but.... It's actually extremely difficult unless you are very well practised. Get it wrong and you can end up with a double fatality.

I vote that Andy (who started this thread) tries to summarise all of this discussion and write it up. Over to you Andy!

I have reflected on this during the development of this thread. What I have decided to do is this: Update the Cave Safe videos with new material focussing on the Stop and Bobbin, and to also include a section on training-the-trainer. The series will be then be issued on fully indexed DVD but the new section on training will be free for download. It is also on my mind to run a CSCC sponsored training workshop for club SRT trainers, but definitely no Descent articles.

 

[paul]

I have reflected on this during the development of this thread. What I have decided to do is this: Update the Cave Safe videos with new material focussing on the Stop and Bobbin, and to also include a section on training-the-trainer. The series will be then be issued on fully indexed DVD but the new section on training will be free for download. It is also on my mind to run a CSCC sponsored training workshop for club SRT trainers, but definitely no Descent articles.

The updated videos/DVD sounds a good idea but, just out of interest, why definitely no Descent articles?

 

[cap n chris]

What's Descent? Is it something to do with a Petzl Stop?

 

[Andy Sparrow]

why definitely no Descent articles?

If you want my views on Descent magazine I suggest you begin another thread! In a nutshell I am not prepared to spend hours writing articles for a magazine I don't really like in return for a token pittance.

 

[Cave_Troll]

If you want my views on Descent magazine I suggest you begin another thread! In a nutshell I am not prepared to spend hours writing articles for a magazine I don't really like in return for a token pittance.

but posting them on the inernet for nothing (less than a pitance), meaning all those cavers who don't regularily read this forum can't see them, is more acceptable?

 

[potholer]

Self-rescue certainly needs thought and practice, but in the context of pitch-bottom knots, is likely to be a last resort in a small number of cases of the knot jamming up somehow after an actual fall is stopped by the knot.

A conscious, able fallen caver should generally be able to do a changeover under instruction, and then sort out the knot problem.

In the case where a caver plummets onto the knot and is injured too badly to carry on themselves, yet where the knot is freeable is fairly easy to rescue, their descender should be usually br reachable from pitch-bottom if the knot was. Even if not, climbing up and clipping into them for a double descent on their stop is fairly easy, and rather harder to mess up than regular self-rescue.

It's only the presumably tiny fraction of cases where the knot has somehow jammed solid after a fall, *and* where the caver is injured or unconscious, (and where there aren't people at the pitch-base who could help support and manually lower the casualty after a little rope-cutting) that full self rescue should be needed, so the concern about the remote possibility of it being needed shouldn't be a barrier to using the knot at pitch-base.

 

[Cave_Troll]

In the case where a caver plummets onto the knot and is injured too badly to carry on themselves, yet where the knot is freeable is fairly easy to rescue, their descender should be usually br reachable from pitch-bottom if the knot was. Even if not, climbing up and clipping into them for a double descent on their stop is fairly easy, and rather harder to mess up than regular self-rescue.

If the knot is that low down then either
+ all of the caver will hit the floor due to rope stretch
+ some of the caver will hit the floor due to "whiplash" of legs and bits carrying on moving down even though the pelvis has stopped

 

[potholer]

It depends - often it's possible to climb up a short distance to tie a knot, such as on a ledge to one side of the pitch bottom.
Even tying a knot at full stretch above one's head, it may be high enough on a short pitch on very static rope. Adding in the extra bit of rope consumed by Stop and braking crab, someone could conceivably miss the bottom.

I'm kind of working on the assumption that where someone can tie a knot, they *may* well be able to reach slightly higher to someone hung up on the knot, further reducing the number of situations where full self-rescue might be required.
It is often possible to have a stance one could tie a knot from that isn't directly below the belay, and which a plummeting abseiler may not hit.

Even if someone dig graze the floor, they could still have avoided quite a lot (maybe even all) significant injury.

<vague question>
If someone did plummet in a sitting position and hit a knot, when their harness started to take up the load, would it tend to pull their thighs horizontal, would the legs end up briefly vertical, or would it depend hugely on the make and fit of the harness or build of the caver?
</vague question>

 

[kay]

Quote:If you want my views on Descent magazine I suggest you begin another thread! In a nutshell I am not prepared to spend hours writing articles for a magazine I don't really like in return for a token pittance.

but posting them on the inernet for nothing (less than a pitance), meaning all those cavers who don't regularily read this forum can't see them, is more acceptable?

On the internet they'd be available for anyone with internet access, though those of us who read this forum would have an advantage when it came to actually finding them!

I suggested Descent originally to cater for those cavers who don't have internet access - even with work access, it's probably still a sizeable minority.

 

[Mike W]

It's always good to hear of quality instructional videos - and I'm sure they will be better planned than this poll was.

A couple of points about matters raised earlier in this topic - firstly "safety (or double) stops" (page two). These are available, the best probably being the Anthron, which I saw today on sale at Bernies in Ingleton (and still at the old price). I've used one under varied conditions, and would be interested in other users' opinions (in a new thread, perhaps ?). [the same descender is also marketed by Vaude - see their 2005 online catalogue].

The abseiling fatality in GG Main Shaft (page eight) - the descender didn't melt the rope. The cause was belay failure due to incompetent rigging, the party had been warned about their technique the day before, by instructors from Whernside Manor.

 

[cap n chris]

The abseiling fatality in GG Main Shaft (page eight) - the descender didn't melt the rope. The cause was belay failure due to incompetent rigging, the party had been warned about their technique the day before, by instructors from Whernside Manor.

Thanks for clarifying this!