POLL: Best sound bite for Cave Conservation Rewards?
- Thread starter Cookie
- Start date
We can't please all of the people all of the time and the scheme and slogan is supported by as many on here as don't. This is about trying to clean up some caves - not pandering to a few folk who shout loudest. Is it so difficult for you guys to get behind it or at least try not to go on and on about your dislike of the slogan to the point that it puts other folk off helping?
Please see that
Please see that
Not just me.
Pitlamp
Well-known member
Badlad said:
Er - I think you'll find we are all basically behind it.
You just need to get one detail right. If the slogan is supported on "by as many people on here as don't" - isn't that enough justification to reconsider it?
I don't understand why that's an unreasonable request - it's just a way of trying to make your good idea even better.
I've tried to keep my own contributions polite and friendly - what prompted me to add further thoughts this morning was Simon's description of my words as "total crap". I don't think this was at all helpful and I hope you'd agree I should be allowed to correct someone's impression of what's actually the case.
Peter Burgess
New member
If it's "only" a slogan, and isn't important, then why don't you just get rid of it and not have a slogan at all? Go on - after all, "It's only a slogan". That would make a good slogan in itself! If you think it's so important to have one, then you must recognise that it IS important and it MUST give the correct message. I look forward to the removal of the slogan from all current and future publicity....
MarkS
Moderator
Suggesting changing the slogan to get it right seems odd when, according to this poll, it's the most popular slogan so far...
I think, as has been alluded to earlier, there is a crucial difference between a slogan associated with an initiative, and a detailed description of what the initiative is trying to achieve. It's never going to be possible to describe exactly what the intentions are in a few words. But equally, having some sort of slogan evidently helps things to stick in peoples' minds. It takes 1 click from the UKC home page to find the phrase, "Please don't remove any active scientific, rescue or digging equipment".
It seems clear that the intention of the scheme is to encourage people to not just ignore rubbish, but to actively do something about it, so of course emphasis is therefore going to be on the side of doing something rather than nothing.
In a more general context, if you leave a pile of stuff anywhere (above or below ground) then you have to consider how others may deal with it. If you think it could be seen as rubbish, surely it's worth leaving some relevant info with it?! If you don't think it could possibly be seen as rubbish, then there's no problem. If one of the outcomes of this is that some information tends to be left with digging gear, surely that's no bad thing in the long run?
A group of people have put a not-insubstantial effort into initiating a conservation scheme that many people seem in favour of. Let's not focus time and effort being picky about a choice of slogan.
I think, as has been alluded to earlier, there is a crucial difference between a slogan associated with an initiative, and a detailed description of what the initiative is trying to achieve. It's never going to be possible to describe exactly what the intentions are in a few words. But equally, having some sort of slogan evidently helps things to stick in peoples' minds. It takes 1 click from the UKC home page to find the phrase, "Please don't remove any active scientific, rescue or digging equipment".
It seems clear that the intention of the scheme is to encourage people to not just ignore rubbish, but to actively do something about it, so of course emphasis is therefore going to be on the side of doing something rather than nothing.
In a more general context, if you leave a pile of stuff anywhere (above or below ground) then you have to consider how others may deal with it. If you think it could be seen as rubbish, surely it's worth leaving some relevant info with it?! If you don't think it could possibly be seen as rubbish, then there's no problem. If one of the outcomes of this is that some information tends to be left with digging gear, surely that's no bad thing in the long run?
A group of people have put a not-insubstantial effort into initiating a conservation scheme that many people seem in favour of. Let's not focus time and effort being picky about a choice of slogan.
Peter Burgess
New member
Pitlamp said:
This is one of the most relevant things I have read here today. It's more than just one person who should be thinking about this.
Peter Burgess
New member
10 people prefer it. 13 people don't.
Bottlebank
New member
MarkS,
40% of the very small numbers of people who have voted on this support the slogan. That leaves 60% who don't and 99.6% of cavers who haven't expressed an opinion, in fact if you were to knock off the votes of the organisers to get a more accurate opinion (which I would if I were them - assuming they've voted) then that 40% shrinks to a very small number indeed - especially if there are nine of them.
Badlad can either listen or not. It's up to him. But if he wants 100% support then he needs stop defending a poor slogan and rethink, his choice at the end of day though.
What isn't acceptable, to my mind, is someone who owns and runs a forum repeatedly accusing people of pedantry and negativity simply because they offer constructive criticism or disagree with his posts. There are very few of us left that dare to post anything he disagrees with, and we have been jokingly exchanging messages with each other wondering when we'll get banned for months now. In fact I'm going to fire off another before I post this!
So one last attempt. We are all, I believe, in favour of the initiative. The slogan sends the wrong message, it is important, get rid off it or change it and make the campaign more successful.
40% of the very small numbers of people who have voted on this support the slogan. That leaves 60% who don't and 99.6% of cavers who haven't expressed an opinion, in fact if you were to knock off the votes of the organisers to get a more accurate opinion (which I would if I were them - assuming they've voted) then that 40% shrinks to a very small number indeed - especially if there are nine of them.
Badlad can either listen or not. It's up to him. But if he wants 100% support then he needs stop defending a poor slogan and rethink, his choice at the end of day though.
What isn't acceptable, to my mind, is someone who owns and runs a forum repeatedly accusing people of pedantry and negativity simply because they offer constructive criticism or disagree with his posts. There are very few of us left that dare to post anything he disagrees with, and we have been jokingly exchanging messages with each other wondering when we'll get banned for months now. In fact I'm going to fire off another before I post this!
So one last attempt. We are all, I believe, in favour of the initiative. The slogan sends the wrong message, it is important, get rid off it or change it and make the campaign more successful.
Peter Burgess
New member
I always work on the premise that the people I engage with here are reasonable. And are happy to disagree in a civilised manner. That seems to be increasingly the case in recent months, which I like.
graham
New member
I don't like slogans. To my mind they get in the way of thought. What I want people to do, in conservation as in other fields, is to think about what they are doing and why. And whether their actions will achieve the desired objective. And whether their desired objective might clash with someone else's.
Etc. etc.
Etc. etc.
MarkS
Moderator
Bottlebank said:
I wasn't necessarily suggesting the poll should be extrapolated to say that it's the more popular choice full stop. I just think that it's a bit odd to say that it's categorically the wrong choice when there are evidently several people who think it's better than the other options suggested.
My main points were the more general ones that followed.
TomTom
New member
Either you spell it out in black and white and probably end up bugging those who are blessed with common sense. Or, you try and get across an idea which will bug those who don't believe people have common sense.
It's one of those, you can't please all of the people all of the time.
As always try to look at the bright side, look how much conservation has been discussed on here recently. Sounds like a winning slogan to me :-\
It's one of those, you can't please all of the people all of the time.
As always try to look at the bright side, look how much conservation has been discussed on here recently. Sounds like a winning slogan to me :-\
Pitlamp
Well-known member
Peter Burgess said:
I was only thinking the same myself t'other day Peter.
Can I just say, I wasn't aware of any joking messages being passed about regarding people getting banned. All I wanted to do was try and encourage a better outcome. Sorry - I mean an "even better" outcome.
I see friendly and civil disagreement as very healthy. (I disagree with Tom Tom's assessment above, for example. But he's welcome to his opinion as far as I'm concerned and I'm not going to argue, as my point's already been made. I do agree with his comment about greater interest in conservation, however - though definitely not with the last sentence.)
Badlad - I took some time to send you a PM earlier today, I hope it explains a few things which I suspect you may not have completely understood. Just mentioning, so you can maybe check your in tray?
Cheers all.
Cookie
New member
As requested I've change "Any rubbish about? Bring it out!" to "Rubbish about? Bring it out!". I trust the 4 people who voted for the old version are OK with the new version.
Moderators. Can you check this poll allows your vote to be re-assigned please? I though I had but I can see no option for me to do that or even to change the option.
Moderators. Can you check this poll allows your vote to be re-assigned please? I though I had but I can see no option for me to do that or even to change the option.
Bottlebank
New member
Perfect, just removed mine and it let me vote again.
