Premature action on CRoW?

[droid]

The keyboard warriors have had their porridge tonight....

 

[jasonbirder]

because my view is unpopular with the audience

Well as you're on UKCaving...when you say

audience

i assume you mean Cavers...

Yes, your view is unpopular with Cavers...perhaps that should tell you something...

 

[crickleymal]

Any more abuse here and I will cancel the event. For those too pissed or angry to notice, this was a poor attempt at humour. Sorry.

So, people call you on your shenanigans and you threaten to take your ball home?  All that twaddle beforehand about being reasonable... seems to me to be a case of do as I say, not as I do.

No need to worry though, I will not be attending that particular NAMHO.

It was humour, something you don't seem to understand! Sheesh!

 

[NewStuff]

Any more abuse here and I will cancel the event. For those too pissed or angry to notice, this was a poor attempt at humour. Sorry.

So, people call you on your shenanigans and you threaten to take your ball home?  All that twaddle beforehand about being reasonable... seems to me to be a case of do as I say, not as I do.

No need to worry though, I will not be attending that particular NAMHO.

It was humour, something you don't seem to understand! Sheesh!

Oh, I understand it, but if you care to read my next post, I am quit sure that he would take his ball home if he doesn't get his own way. It's about all he's got left, as his arguments for his point of view hold no water.

 

[andrewmcleod]

I had some questions in my last (admittedly silly in places) post which remain unanswered, so I thought I would tidy them up and ask them again.

Genuine questions:

How often do you see 'non-cavers' in caves (not mines)?

Are there any caves which require keys or permits, but are not leader-led, where there are checks about the competency of the cavers applying (i.e. not just that they are in a club)?

Has the introduction of CROW caving in Scotland made any obvious differences? Have some gated/leader-led caves had to be opened up? Has access to any caves been lost or gained? How does it work - is the entire cave CROW if the entrances are on CROW land, or is only the portion of the cave beneath the CROW land accessible?

 

[Peter Burgess]

because my view is unpopular with the audience

Well as you're on UKCaving...when you say

audience

i assume you mean Cavers...

Yes, your view is unpopular with Cavers...perhaps that should tell you something...

Yes it does. It taught me to take care who to have an intelligent discussion with, and who to keep at arms length. What it doesn't tell me, which I have learnt elsewhere, is never to be afraid to say what you mean and mean what you say.

This forum is not for the exclusive use of those who hold one opinion. It's value would be greatly diminished if it was one big cheer-leading fest for those who hold a majority view on anything. It does seem that some people cannot accept the idea that there might be people out there who don't agree with them. The intolerance expressed in the last 24 hours is a sad indictment of otherwise intelligent people, Alex excepted, I have to say  . I hope I can claim to have not responded in kind to the bores.

It does seem that once some have run out of things to say on anything material, they switch to character assassination. Jane posted a few days ago how much better UKCaving had become over the last year. Some of you guys seem determined to prove her wrong.

I'd like to address Andrew's points, but why don't some of you lot exercise some brain cells and do it, post something intelligent for once.

 

[damian]

It does seem that once some have run out of things to say on anything material, they switch to character assassination. Jane posted a few days ago how much better UKCaving had become over the last year. Some of you guys seem determined to prove her wrong.

Come on guys. There are perfectly valid and justifiable arguments on both sides of the CRoW debate and it would be nice if we could acknowledge this, allow both sides to be discussed and thus better understand each other. Surely whichever side of the fence you sit on, you accept this?

 

[NewStuff]

Yes it does. It taught me to take care who to have an intelligent discussion with, and who to keep at arms length. What it doesn't tell me, which I have learnt elsewhere, is never to be afraid to say what you mean and mean what you say.

This forum is not for the exclusive use of those who hold one opinion. It's value would be greatly diminished if it was one big cheer-leading fest for those who hold a majority view on anything. It does seem that some people cannot accept the idea that there might be people out there who don't agree with them. The intolerance expressed in the last 24 hours is a sad indictment of otherwise intelligent people, Alex excepted, I have to say  . I hope I can claim to have not responded in kind to the bores.

It does seem that once some have run out of things to say on anything material, they switch to character assassination. Jane posted a few days ago how much better UKCaving had become over the last year. Some of you guys seem determined to prove her wrong.

I'd like to address Andrew's points, but why don't some of you lot exercise some brain cells and do it, post something intelligent for once.

Pot, kettle, black.

You are the worst offender on here, despite your attempts at pretending otherwise, and you have the gall to lecture others? The difference being , you will not state your distaste outright, whereas I and others have no such limitations.

I am intolerant of people posting outright crap, and pretending they have a majority view when they *do not*. Sorry if that offends your sensibilities, but I won't be changing that view any time soon. With regards to character assassination,  you need no help whatsoever assassinating your character, I'll let you get on with that yourself.

Much as I have held my tongue because the new owners are making an active effort to make this a less hostile place, there is only so much I can deal with before I feel obliged to correct certain errors. However, in the interests of not degrading this any further, how about the following? If you and your cronies don't post crap, people won't feel obliged to correct it, no-one cries and runs to mummy because someone said something they don't like.

 

[Peter Burgess]

It's called respect. It's how people learn to get along.

 

[Alex]

Thank you for explaining yourself, I am glad you are not against access. I see that you come from the point that CROW won't help that and may hinder in the areas you work in. I don't agree but at least I know where you are coming from.

 

[Pegasus]

By Peter Burgess

It does seem that once some have run out of things to say on anything material, they switch to character assassination. Jane posted a few days ago how much better UKCaving had become over the last year. Some of you guys seem determined to prove her wrong.

I'd like to address Andrew's points, but why don't some of you lot exercise some brain cells and do it, post something intelligent for once.

[admin]Yourself included, Peter - please stop it, thank you[/admin]

 

[Pegasus]

[admin]OK folks, can we calm it down please, thank you. [/admin]

 

[jasonbirder]

It does seem that once some have run out of things to say on anything material, they switch to character assassination

It does seem that whenever you refer to "Character Assassination" or "Ad-Hominem" attacks...you are essentially referring to instances in which people point out you aren't what most people would call an "active caver" nor do you have an active interest (beyond the academic) in what people would consider major Caving Regions of the UK...

That's not a character assassination its a perfectly valid point in framing where your anti-access views come from...

 

[cavemanmike]

It does seem that once some have run out of things to say on anything material, they switch to character assassination

It does seem that whenever you refer to "Character Assassination" or "Ad-Hominem" attacks...you are essentially referring to instances in which people point out you aren't what most people would call an "active caver" nor do you have an active interest (beyond the academic) in what people would consider major Caving Regions of the UK...

That's not a character assassination its a perfectly valid point in framing where your anti-access views come from...

like jane said it would be nice if we could KEEP ON TOPIC and stop throwing mud

 

[jasonbirder]

Actually...apologies if that's out of order or given offence!
I guess that's what happens when your trip to the dales is rained off and you're feeling grumpy!
Mods...feel free to Edit/Delete my earlier post if appropriate

(No worries, Jason - rubbish weather making me feel grumpy too! Pegasus)

 

[Alex]

Yeh it's the weather permits I keep failing to get that piss me off, which is why I personally want as much choice as possible, hence pro CROW. Pirate a cave without a weather permit you end up trapped/dead not just told off.

 

[droid]

Lets ask NewStuff a question:

Will CRoW apply to abandoned mines, or are they covered by other legislation that takes precedence.

 

[Wayland Smith]

Lets ask NewStuff a question:

Will CRoW apply to abandoned mines, or are they covered by other legislation that takes precedence.

Simple answer        Crow can not apply to Mines. 
There is legislation in place which takes precedence some of it quite recent, which requires that mine entrances be "made safe"
Before someone quotes "abandoned mines"  that exclusion is for mines abandoned for a very long time.

For example  http://www.iosh.co.uk/~/media/Documents/MYIOSH/CD267/Draft%20The%20Mines%20Regulations%202014.ashx

 

[NewStuff]

Droid - Of course CRoW is not going to be applicable to mines, that's been covered to death, as well you know.

I'll save you the trouble of pointing out that I rarely venture into natural caves, which is obviously where you are going with this. So what?  I live in N.Wales, where the manmade is *orders of magnitude* more common than natural. In my local area, I cannot think of a single cave that is not gated in some way, but ungated mines are plentiful enough. Should I want to go see a particular cave for no reason other than it strikes my fancy, I will go and see it. The couple I know of north of me that are not gated/barred or have silly access requirements are mudholes I'm not interested in.

Wayland Smith - He was setting up to make the above point.

Anyway, I thought people were supposed to be refraining from the usual shenanigans that ensue in a CRoW thread?

 

[droid]

Anyway, I thought people were supposed to be refraining from the usual shenanigans that ensue in a CRoW thread?

You mean the sort of ad hominem nonsense shown above by....errrr NewStuff?

If you can't take it, don't dish it out. That's MY intolerance.