Premature action on CRoW?

[martinr]

This debate is about CRoW - most of mendip isnt covered. Its irrelevant

It isn't about CROW, it's about the BCA (possibly) campaigning for a wider right of access even when the landowner wishes not to grant access (or does but imposes conditions). At the moment the BCA constitution recognises the right of a landowner to withhold access.

Sorry you think Mendip and its caves on CROW land are irrelevant.

 

[Peter Burgess]

This debate is about CRoW - most of mendip isnt covered. Its irrelevant

It isn't about CROW, it's about the BCA (possibly) campaigning for a wider right of access even when the landowner wishes not to grant access (or does but imposes conditions). At the moment the BCA constitution recognises the right of a landowner to withhold access.

Sorry you think Mendip and it's caves on CROW land are irrelevant.

.... and until that changes, no "campaign" to place cavers' rights above owners' wishes is constitutional, but, hey, we live in a new regime where nobody gives a damn about due process.

 

[richardg]

I thought Peter Burgers you spend all your time pottering about in the tiny mines in the county of Surrey.... So why the f...k are u trying to bring so much disharmony among the broader Cave community.... By your own admission you never  set foot out of your area... Please do not try to set people up so you can sit back in your rocking chair  and enjoy being a spectator at a fight you would love to have been an instigator of...

The rest of us North and South get on fine thank-you.....

I Cave loads and never have trouble with access to do Cave related project... Most landowners and farmers are happy when I ask to go on there land..

Places which were definitely out of bounds before the right to roam act are now freely accessible and its brillient.

Peter as well as you trying hard to create disharmony where there is none.... People (via Facebook) can not believe that dinosaurs such as you are still living on the Earth today.... Have you heard of Kinder Scout in the Peak District..... Have a look on the internet and learn about how no one but a few had any right to walk there... Since an act of Parliament to allow freedom for people to go and enjoy recreation there millions have enjoyed it...

..... If you had access to Dr Who's Tardis no doubt you would go back in time to make sure the Parliament would repeel those right to roam acts, the National Park Acts.The Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty .SSSI s etc etc

The landowners are my friends, we have no problems in The right to Roam act.... Together we are all custodians of this beautiful landscape both above and below ground and we work together..

Peter you have a choice either celebrate these enlightened times of government and freedom of the masses to enjoy  the wonderfull and beutiful world of nature and due democratic process ....

Or you can continue to to sit back in your armchair with your keyboard on your lap trying to create disharmony where no disharmony exists.... 

Don't worry about your Surrey mines Peter I don't think you will have many people visiting them...... Hay why don't you petition your local MP to have them all sealed up and make it so no one can visit them...only Peter Burgers  who has his own personal key. .... Keep  everyone else out eh Pete........

 

[martinr]

So leaving out the ad hominem attack, that leaves.....  er, not a lot

 

[Peter Burgess]

What a ridiculous and unfactual diatribe. Don't worry, I am used to them. Happy New Year. See you in Wales some time?

 

[Peter Burgess]

And, let me remind the members here, this is a forum for all cavers and non-cavers who are interested in caves, to express whatever they want to within the forum rules, on the basis that their views will be respected if not agreed with, and as such I will continue to use it as long as I am permitted to and wish to. It is important that all such national forums maintain a balance of views. Those who don't like that should go and set up their own site, I suggest. Try modelling it on an extreme political party - they are pretty good at removing opinions they don't like.

I am fully aware that I have made "enemies" here - I have also made some good friends. It's just a mirror of real life!

 

[braveduck]

And you always want the last word ,pathetic Mr Burgess !

 

[NewStuff]

What a ridiculous and unfactual diatribe. Don't worry, I am used to them. Happy New Year. See you in Wales some time?

Nice to see someone other than me has you pegged correctly, and is quite happy to call you out on your shenanigans. I may be quiet, but I'm still poking my nose in now and again.

I think Dinosaur sums it up nicely.

Now, given that you brought up setting up a website if you don't get your own way, how is your bestest buddies"news" site doing? I hope spamming it every-fucking-where is actually getting you some traffic. Trying to force a comparison with extreme political parties if someone doesn't aggree with you is, frankly, pathetic and desperate.

You can "Remind members" all you want, but unless a mod, or the owners ask me to STFU, I'll happily ignore your pathetic rantings. You do not respect anyone's viewpoint that does not agree with you, despite your attempt at appearing to be reasonable.

 

[paul]

[gmod]That's enough of the personal attacks. Any more and the responsible person will be banned as it is in contravention of Forum rules.[/gmod]

 

[Duncan Price]

Is that the search for the next entrance into Ogof Drainen then?  :ang:

No - but the politics surrounding the dig are just as bad.

 

[Alex]

Not an enemy of me Peter, I can't be bothered with them but you do seem to be anti-caving, from the tone of a lot of your posts? This is a question not a statement.

I think you put politeness and due process above everything else, yet you seem have a nasty habit of winding a lot of us active cavers the wrong way. I think what we want is to carry on caving and to get access easier what is it you want Peter? Not an attack, I am genuinely interested.

 

[braveduck]

Avery good question Alex !  :-\

 

[jasonbirder]

If granting Cavers access rights under CRoW legislation is going to prove such a devastating game changer with Landowners...who will act with such indignation and anger at the tiny trickle of Cavers on their land (in comparison with the much larger numbers of Walkers/General Outdoor users)

I wonder why it hasn't had the same immediately detrimental effect on relations between landowners and Walkers or landowners and Climbers?

I must have missed the flurry of crags on Non-CRoW Land being closed to climbers by outraged Landowners in retaliation at the inclusion of Climbing/Bouldering as an "Outdoor Activity" under the Law...

 

[Peter Burgess]

At last an intelligent response from Alex - thank you Alex. If others don't object, I am happy to address the questions you ask. I really cannot see how I can be anti-caving when I do a fair bit of it myself, and really enjoy it. I too rarely have problems with access, and when I do, I don't let it get to me. A few weeks ago, I failed to get a key to OFD. No problem, we went off and caved somewhere else and had a fantastic day's caving. This was the first time ever I have not managed to get a key, and you just have to be philosophical about these things, and not get in a rage. The cave is still there for another day. The glass was half full, not half empty.

Perhaps the tone of my posts simply doesn't suit the flavour of the day - using a favourable interpretation of the law to gain right of access as a "quick fix" for people who can't be bothered to sort out the access for themselves. I don't pretend to understand all the nonsense over permits for fells. It does seem quite perverse. But fix the system for the particular problem. Is it so hard?

I accept the majority want the law clarified. So be it, but it appears most are assuming the law already has been clarified (it hasn't) and are steaming ahead on that basis. Patience is a virtue and gains respect.

If people get wound up by what I think, then that's probably because they don't like their own position being questioned, however politely. You have questioned my position - that's fine, it doesn't worry me that you have. I can accept that you have a different perspective on things. Others seem to think they are obliged to read what I write and respond aggressively. They don't have to. The vast majority of posts on UKCaving I ignore myself. If it's a subject that people want to contribute to, then others' views should be responded to intelligently and respectfully.

Yes of course I want easier access. I have spent my whole caving life since 1978 getting and preserving access to the "tiny Surrey mines", and through working with third parties, owners etc, we (not I) have gained the respect and trust of most. This has allowed us (not just me) to survey and study some 20 plus miles of the "tiny Surrey mines", and have enough places to visit to make it worth hosting the 2017 NAMHO conference. God knows how we are going to fit them all in, and of course they will have to personally ask me for the keys. Any more abuse here and I will cancel the event. For those too pissed or angry to notice, this was a poor attempt at humour. Sorry.

 

[NewStuff]

Any more abuse here and I will cancel the event. For those too pissed or angry to notice, this was a poor attempt at humour. Sorry.

So, people call you on your shenanigans and you threaten to take your ball home?  All that twaddle beforehand about being reasonable... seems to me to be a case of do as I say, not as I do.

No need to worry though, I will not be attending that particular NAMHO.

 

[Peter Burgess]

the relief is palpable 

And not everyone "gets" my SOH, clearly......  :-\

 

[Brains]

Premature action on CRoW?

Thats the title of this thread.
BCA has been mandated to clarify the existing law. It is doing so. As the caving national body it should be promoting caving, not restricting it. Working within the law should be a given
If caving is found to be covered, it still WILL NOT have any bearing on mines, or caves, on non open access land. Debate in this thread about such sites is completly OT
Perhaps a new thread should be started about about the effect of pro access clarification to all mines and caves on non access land. Perhaps it could begin with a synopsis of the climbing crags on non access land where access has been lost following the passing of the act in question, as case examples of the access apocalypse we apparently face

 

[NewStuff]

the relief is palpable 

And not everyone "gets" my SOH, clearly......  :-\

Given that you know full well the passion on both sides this topic causes, I hardly think it's the place for self-admitted bad attempts at humor. I for one do not believe it is a badly formed attempt at lightening the tone of the thread as you try to imply, I suspect from your general attitude and posting manner that you would be very happy to take your ball home if things don't go your way.

Now, how about we get back to the main reason of this thread, given that you started the damn thing in an attempt to further your delaying tactics.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Well, you clearly don't know me, and for my part, that suits me well enough. The very reason I started this was, if you read the initial post, because I had a genuine concern, and as I implied back then I will not be intimidated by others just because my view is unpopular with the audience. I hoped it would provoke thought, which it has. I hoped it would keep people on their toes - perhaps it has. And my philosophy is to be as honest in what I write as possible, because that way you never regret posting it, even if it does provoke hostility from the likes of you and others.

 

[2xw]

Yeah, Clive, keep it simple - some members struggle with long sentences!

Quite. Why present your argument simply and eloquently when we can have 8000 ukc debates, 59 metaphorical stories and 7 trillion semantic arguments.

The only positive outcome of this sort of thread is it makes all of us want to crawl into a hole