Question of hydrology

pwhole

pwhole

Well-known member
That Goosehill rising is indeed one of the puzzles we hope to test in the next year once we get deep enough and clear enough in Longcliffe. The phreatic tube at the west end of Peakshole Sough trending out into the valley under the shale is also an interesting conundrum, and it's not that far away from that rising. The leakage could also be part of the mystery Blue John/Treak Cliff route. It would be interesting if the Red Seats rising was wet-weather overflow from Hazard/Hollandtwine - whizzing past Doom's Retreat on the way ;)
 
martinb

martinb

Member
The Blue John/Treak Cliff hydrology has fascinated me for a number of years. Given the size of the 2 systems, the size of the relic canyons, there has to be a sizeable outlet heading towards Russet Well, maybe along the size of Upper Gallery in Peak.

Given that Russet has been dived to about 25m, exactly how much of it is accessible to non-divers is moot.

As mentioned before there is no stream in Treak, but there is a LOT of percolation water, which could add up to a sizeable stream if it were all in one place.

In a field across the road from Treak, there is a well/shaft, that has always interested me as to where it drops into, as it almost is in line if you were to draw a line between Treak and Russet, it sits virtually on top of said line. But, as we know, caves don't always run in a straight line......
 
alastairgott

alastairgott

Well-known member
martinb said:
caves don't always run in a straight line......
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but to quote someone else "caves are where you find them"

martinb said:
In a field across the road from Treak, there is a well/shaft
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could you approximate a grid reference or could we meet up on a weekend and find it? https://binged.it/2gq6Joe

martinb said:
Given that Russet has been dived to about 25m, exactly how much of it is accessible to non-divers is moot.
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Russet Well does need diving again as part of the SSSI cave monitoring, so could be worth another go for a diver or two. http://thedca.org.uk/sssi-monitoring/sssi/castleton
 
pwhole

pwhole

Well-known member
There's also Pindale Sough, which drains water from Dirtlow Rake, and presumably the Hollandtwine swallow. That's 'accessible' from the bottom of Pindale End Mine, but still needs silt digging out in summer to gain access in either direction - we just haven't got round to that yet! Also the stream entering midway down Titan - is that assumed to be from Slack Hole, Wham Rake-Hazard-Hollandtwine, or some other mystery source from the Old Moor that we don't know about? Again, not sure if any of that has been tested yet. I guess we should ask John G.
 
Rob

Rob

Well-known member
pwhole said:
...Also the stream entering midway down Titan - is that assumed to be from Slack Hole, Wham Rake-Hazard-Hollandtwine, or some other mystery source from the Old Moor that we don't know about? Again, not sure if any of that has been tested yet. I guess we should ask John G.
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Most of the Titan water comes from Absolution, which climbs to within 25m of the surface (the horizon of the breakthrough window). The source is indeed still unknown, but i'd be very surprised if it's not just percolation water from the fields up there, following wholly natural sources...
 
T

T pot 2

Active member
Dan
13 giants cave lower?

So in theory we have the p swallets named. Other sinks are coming to the fore. Let's now try names of known resurgences in the Valley of hope / castleton.

T p
 
al

al

Member
Rob said:
Most of the Titan water comes from Absolution, which climbs to within 25m of the surface (the horizon of the breakthrough window). The source is indeed still unknown, but i'd be very surprised if it's not just percolation water from the fields up there, following wholly natural sources...
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I think that this must be correct. There is no high ground here with impermeable rock to provide the source for an allogenic system, in contrast to the situation across the road on Rushup. Any precipitation must fall on limestone grassland and must be percolation.
 
RobinGriffiths

RobinGriffiths

Well-known member
With regard to Treak Cliff, how does hydrology work there? Now I understand it's a reef rather than conventional limestone bedding, so I assume normal dip and strike flow regimes don't work. So I would assume flow would be controlled by permeabilty within the reef block, and gravity driven?
 
R

RichardB1983

Member
T pot 2 said:
Dan
13 giants cave lower?

So in theory we have the p swallets named. Other sinks are coming to the fore. Let's now try names of known resurgences in the Valley of hope / castleton.

T p
Click to expand...

The main resurgences for the P-swallet water are at Slop Moll - which emerges just off of the path up to Peak Cavern and joins the Peak Water not far from the Peak Vestibule; and Russet Well which emerges in someone's garden and joins the Peak & Slop Moll water slightly further towards the village.

The Peak water "River Styx" emerges just east of the Vestibule - but is meant to carry largely percolation water for most of the time.

It all gets a bit more complex in high water conditions, as the Speedwell streamway can back up and flow in to Peak, and in extreme flood the water has been known before to come out of the show cave entrance.
 
martinb

martinb

Member
RobinGriffiths said:
With regard to Treak Cliff, how does hydrology work there? Now I understand it's a reef rather than conventional limestone bedding, so I assume normal dip and strike flow regimes don't work. So I would assume flow would be controlled by permeabilty within the reef block, and gravity driven?
Click to expand...

Simply, yes.

A large part of the limestone is fractured and water simply follows the easiest route downwards. In the new series show cave, in the roof, the original phreatic tube can be seen and followed from one end to the other. Over millennia this downcut the rock to create the show cave as you see, although the 'floor' you walk on is simply the infill/choke of rock from that period, and the vadose canyon is speculated to be much deeper.

In various other parts off the tourist route, there are definate (large) water worn walls, small inlets of percolation water come in, usually from the reef/boulder bed boundary. JG has located a number of these and done dye tests to Russet Well and, I think, somewhere else - Slop Moll?
 
richardg

richardg

Active member
T Pot.
In answer to your original question, I recall there is also a P 0.5 higher up the valley from P 0.
This was located at the same time as the explorations of P 0 were taking place....

As you will know P 0 was dye tested, though I do not know if P 0.5 has ever been tested......

There are some very old British Speleological Association records that list the swallets in the feeder catchment area.

I was told that these contained information that later generations of cavers were unaware of......, for instance P 0. Was recorded but only many years later was its location re-discovered by cavers (Keith Benthem).

Richard Gibson.
 
T

T pot 2

Active member
RichardB1983
Ok that sums up the P swallet drainage through slop moll, russet well and peakshole water but what about the other outflow in the center of Castleton ?

T p
 
richardg

richardg

Active member
martinb said:
RobinGriffiths said:
With regard to Treak Cliff, how does hydrology work there? Now I understand it's a reef rather than conventional limestone bedding, so I assume normal dip and strike flow regimes don't work. So I would assume flow would be controlled by permeabilty within the reef block, and gravity driven?
Click to expand...

Simply, yes.

A large part of the limestone is fractured and water simply follows the easiest route downwards. In the new series show cave, in the roof, the original phreatic tube can be seen and followed from one end to the other. Over millennia this downcut the rock to create the show cave as you see, although the 'floor' you walk on is simply the infill/choke of rock from that period, and the vadose canyon is speculated to be much deeper.

In various other parts off the tourist route, there are definate (large) water worn walls, small inlets of percolation water come in, usually from the reef/boulder bed boundary. JG has located a number of these and done dye tests to Russet Well and, I think, somewhere else - Slop Moll?
Click to expand...

Of interest is the fact all of the swallet caves  occur in and have their entrance series in the reef limestone along the length of the Rushup Edge valley.......
 
droid

droid

Active member
That isn't reef limestone, is it?

I thought the reef limestone was the escarpment round Longcliffe/Cave Dale/Winnats.....
 
martinb

martinb

Member
droid said:
That isn't reef limestone, is it?

I thought the reef limestone was the escarpment round Longcliffe/Cave Dale/Winnats.....
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According to 'The Limestone and Dolomite Resources of the Peak District of Derbyshire and Staffordshire' Published by BGS (ISBN 011884444X) - which incidently is has a handy geological overlay of said region - shows that the Apron Reef Limestone stretches from Hope Works via Peak Cavern, then round via Longcliffe, Treak and towards Mam Tor. It then reappears close to Windy Knoll and does indeed form the underlying rock along the 'P's' swallet line virtually all the way to Sparrowpit.

However it doesn't extend that far back, maybe only a couple of 100m at best, sometimes much less.
 
alastairgott

alastairgott

Well-known member
T pot 2 said:
RichardB1983
but what about the other outflow in the center of Castleton ?

T p
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You seem to know more than you're letting on... :p

What knowledge have you got by infiltrating the locals?
 
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