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Relaxing Cowstail Knots

TheBitterEnd

Well-known member
Bob Mehew said:
We have observed that the time of the peak force at one end of the rope is at a different time to the peak force at the other end but have yet to get a handle on its implications.  (And I am ignoring air resistance.)

What's the speed of sound in Nylon and is this time difference similar to (rope length/speed of sound)?

My hunch being that a shock wave will travel close the the speed of sound for the materal in which it travels.

 

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
Penguin - The simple answer is no.  Personally I don't think Fall Factors are relevant to caving situations.  [To repeat myself, in the short rope length situations expected if a caver falls, then the presence of crabs, knots and their loops mess up the in built assumption of a single length of rope used in the Fall Factor model.]  The value of the Fall Factor comes in for climbing where climbers can fall moderate distances and want a means of comparing one fall to another.  Remember, a Fall Factor is simply defined as the ratio of the length of the fall to the length of the rope (hopefully) stopping the fall.  Hence it can say nothing about the ability of the body ect to absorb the fall, the size of potential forces etc. 

All that comes from inappropriate extensions to this simple concept of a Fall Factor.  For example see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_factor whcih uses the harmonic model only to admit the model cannot not explain real ropes!  I will say from our experience "Too Bloody True".  Neither undamped or damped models fit the results we are getting from dropping ropes and measuring force time profiles.  This guy did a little better http://www.sigmadewe.com/fileadmin/user_upload/pdf-Dateien/Physics_of_climbing_ropes.pdf (but don't go there unless you like third order differential equations) but even so, his model does not fit the data.  I have to admit that our work is in that frustrating area of having (almost) developed the kit we are still trying to get a handle on an appropriate model to describe the behaviour of a rope under a dynamic test situation.

 

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
TheBitterEnd said:
Bob Mehew said:
We have observed that the time of the peak force at one end of the rope is at a different time to the peak force at the other end but have yet to get a handle on its implications.  (And I am ignoring air resistance.)

What's the speed of sound in Nylon and is this time difference similar to (rope length/speed of sound)?

My hunch being that a shock wave will travel close the the speed of sound for the materal in which it travels.

Perceptive but unfortunately nylon is not a simple material.  Kaye and Laby cite the longitudinal bulk waves speed of sound for nylon as 2680m/s which over 1m (roughly the length of our samples) suggests a time difference of around 0.4 milli seconds.  The observed time difference is between 5 and 10 milli seconds.  We think this is because the rope is acting somewhat like a spring.  In a spring, the force travels up the rope as a longitudinal wave at a speed related to the square root of the tension in the rope divided by the density of the rope.  (Try it with a slinky spring - quite nice to see the effect in slow motion.)  But we know our rope samples do not behave like a perfect spring , even if we allow for damping.  One of our current challenges is to try and remove the influence of the knot on the behaviour of the rope sample to see what happens.     
 

damian

Active member
Bob Mehew said:
The translated French Cows Tails article suggests that the maximum force a knot is likely to see under most deliberate caving action is around 3kN / 300kg.
Forgive me for being lazy and not checking myself, but was this specifically a cowstail knot, Bob? If it was then I find the figure very surprising. We know that prusiking and abseiling in a jerky fashion can create forces of at least 2Kn on the knots and anchors, but cowstail use is almost always quite gentle. By definition I am pretty careful about how I transfer weight to them given that I use snapgates - I like to be pretty sure there are no other ropes in the area that are going to open the gate etc.

My argument about not relaxing barrel knots is based on the principle that they are unlikely in normal use to have ever been tightened to much more than 1Kn. Maybe I'm wrong?
 

ttxela

New member
With all these issues I am becoming quite stressed about my cowstail knots  :(

If anyone could suggest some more relaxing ones it would be appreciated  :coffee:
 

potholer

New member
caving_fox said:
I have certainly encountered rigging similar to the above, and would always treat the last butterfly knot as a rebelay. Eg put stop onto the short descent to Y hang - unless there's enough decent footing around to justify only safetying with cows tails. I suppose technically then I could slip, but as above you'd have to get it really really wrong to fall onto that slack rather than slither/bump. Hence nowhere near the same peak load.
A lot presumably depends on precise distances and positions of ledges, etc.
If I could rig and lock a descender onto the real hang while protected/hanging on cowstails from the traverse proper, there'd be no real issue of fall factors if it was possible to weight the descender and lower myself on a controlled pendulum onto it - at worst I'd have an uncontrolled pendulum moderated by sliding against the wall.
 

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
damian said:
Bob Mehew said:
The translated French Cows Tails article suggests that the maximum force a knot is likely to see under most deliberate caving action is around 3kN / 300kg.
Forgive me for being lazy and not checking myself, but was this specifically a cowstail knot, Bob? If it was then I find the figure very surprising. We know that prusiking and abseiling in a jerky fashion can create forces of at least 2Kn on the knots and anchors, but cowstail use is almost always quite gentle. By definition I am pretty careful about how I transfer weight to them given that I use snapgates - I like to be pretty sure there are no other ropes in the area that are going to open the gate etc.

My argument about not relaxing barrel knots is based on the principle that they are unlikely in normal use to have ever been tightened to much more than 1Kn. Maybe I'm wrong?

I have obtained the reference to the source of the 3kN value cited in the published French Cows Tails document of 2006 and am having many difficulties in understanding it, despite the most helpful work by my translator.  But I am reasonably confident that the peak 3kN value comes from a tyrolean set up.  But behind that comes various other set ups including those arising when one person rescues a 2nd on a rope.  (I presume that by a "cows tail knot" you mean any one of the knots one might use in making a cows tail.) 

You say "We know that prusiking and abseiling in a jerky fashion can create forces of at least 2Kn" - well that is news to me.  Lyon's work found a peak value of 1.6kN (see page 26) whcih I rounded up to 2kN. 

I say relax your knots because it is extremely unlikely that you will tie them with a force in excess of 0.5kN but in use you will subject them to at least 1kN, if not more.  So getting back to 0.5kN could make the difference in reducing the peak force in a true fall from one which causes an injury or worse to one which you walk away from.  In addition, one needs to do something with the knot in order to ensure it is clean. 

I suppose I should advise people to partially undo their cows tails knots so they can properly wash the cows tails and then redress them after each trip.  Plus if they fall on a cows tails or rope, then undo and retie the knots as soon as it is safe to do so and consider throwing the cows tail / rope after you finish the trip.

But I presume I now need to define what a fall is.  Which means looking at peak forces for drops of less than 50cm on a short cows tails since a 50cm long rope in a Fall Factor 1 fall generates a peak force above 6kN.

Does that make things clearer?  If not, suggestions would be welcomed for phrasing the message?
 

Cookie

New member
Bob Mehew said:
I suppose I should advise people to partially undo their cows tails knots so they can properly wash the cows tails and then redress them after each trip.  Plus if they fall on a cows tails or rope, then undo and retie the knots as soon as it is safe to do so and consider throwing the cows tail / rope after you finish the trip.

Hi Bob,

interesting stuff but could you make it clear that at this stage this is unofficial advice from Bob Mehew and not approved advice from the BCA. Obviously that might change in the future once it has gone past the E&T Committee.

For my part I agree with your second sentence about retying after a fall but am concerned about the first.

I can see in isolation it make sense but what about the unintended consequences? There are no studies into the increased risk of knots untying themselves at a critical moment on cavers trying to following the advice. We have an example of it all going wrong in Alex's anecdote above.

If I retie my cows-tails once a year I will take care to get it right, if I retie my cows-tails once a week my odds off getting it wrong will increase,  compounded by human nature, I'm likely to get lazy.
 

cavermark

New member
A lot of this is "academic" as the likehood of big falls on cowstails is quite low. However, that doesn't mean taking precautions if you have the time or inclination isn't worthwhile "just in case".

Would it be fair to say..."don't get too "hung up" about it!!?" :LOL: :LOL:
 

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
Cookie said:
Hi Bob,

interesting stuff but could you make it clear that at this stage this is unofficial advice from Bob Mehew and not approved advice from the BCA. Obviously that might change in the future once it has gone past the E&T Committee.

For my part I agree with your second sentence about retying after a fall but am concerned about the first.

I can see in isolation it make sense but what about the unintended consequences? There are no studies into the increased risk of knots untying themselves at a critical moment on cavers trying to following the advice. We have an example of it all going wrong in Alex's anecdote above.

If I retie my cows-tails once a year I will take care to get it right, if I retie my cows-tails once a week my odds off getting it wrong will increase,  compounded by human nature, I'm likely to get lazy.

I will answer your first paragraph separately.

I am uncertain whether to either applaud your brutal honesty or to assume you were being lazy and using the term ?I? to really mean some other person.  For the avoidance of accusations that I am getting at you, I will use the term ?this person? and thus not imply it might be you.

The short answer is that such a person would be considered what I would call as a ?walking disaster? and likely to have given up SRT because of either the frightening experiences they have had or else found no one will go with them.

The longer answer is best explained in terms of probabilities and frequencies. 

Let us assume this person undertakes ?a? SRT trips per year.  (a will thus be one or more in value.)  And on each trip there is a probability of ?b? that this person will fall on their cows tail in such a way as to suffer a serious consequence (sever injury or fatality).  (b will thus take a value of between zero and one.)  The option you raise is that either this person ties their cows tails properly and hence saves them self from the serious consequence when they fall or does not tie them properly and thus suffer a serious consequence when they fall.  (Note b includes the probability of this fall.)  Let us take the probability of tying them improperly as ?c?.  Thus the probability of tying them properly is ?1-c?. 

So we have two partial probabilities b * (1 ? c) where this person gets away with the fall and b * c where they do not.  Work on human factors usually cites a value for c of around 1 in 10,000 for getting a simple task wrong.  So clearly if this person is diligent, then the partial probability of getting it wrong is small compared to the probability of getting it right. 

But you were suggesting this person was grossly incompetent so c takes a much larger value.  But in such circumstances I would argue that we also need to look at the impact that such a level of (in) competence would have on the other risks that one takes with SRT.  So on each trip this person will put their gear on at least ?x? times, tie ?y? knots in rope, and have ?z? other opportunities for getting things wrong.  Now x, y and z will all take values of at least one and probably somewhat higher perhaps up towards ten.  I will argue that it is appropriate to use the value of c to provide a probability that this person will get any of these acts wrong and thus leading to a serious consequence.  So in this case we need to factor the value of a into our probabilities to get frequencies so that:

a * b * (1 ? c) is the frequency that this person gets away with the fall;

a * b * c is the frequency that this person does not get away with the fall; and

a * (x + y + z) * c is the frequency that this person has a serious consequence through some other stupid act.

I trust you can see that as b is much smaller than x + y + z, then the frequency of this person not getting away with a fall is trivial compared to the frequency that this person has a serious consequence through some other stupid act.  One might also argue that the value of b rises in the light of the gross incompetence of this person, but it will still be less than one, so there remains a benefit in taking the precaution.  Hence my term ?walking disaster?.  I trust you have not known too many such characters.

I must admit that I still don't understand how one can effectively clean one's cows tails without partially untying the knots.  Leaving dirt in the crevasses of the knots seems like a good way to reduce the life of the cows tail.
 

mikem

Well-known member
Has there ever been a case of a cowstail breaking or a serious injury when someone has dropped onto their cowstail?

Mike
 

Fulk

Well-known member
Bob ? I believe that you have tested cows tails on the drop-test rig, and found that even crappy old ones (that may or may not have been 'relaxed' between trips . . . but one might hazardous a guess and say 'probably not' (?)) sustain several falls before breaking; does this have any bearing on the matter?
 

SamT

Moderator
mikem said:
Has there ever been a case of a cowstail breaking or a serious injury when someone has dropped onto their cowstail?

Mike

I know a certain shop owner at mytham bridge that seriously put his back out when slipping off a scaff bar that he was stood on - with cows tail attached at his feet - i.e. pretty much as close to a ff1 fall as your realistically going to get.  Luckily, it was at a shaft entrance, not deep underground!
 

Glenn

Member
SamT said:
mikem said:
Has there ever been a case of a cowstail breaking or a serious injury when someone has dropped onto their cowstail?

Mike

I know a certain shop owner at mytham bridge that seriously put his back out when slipping off a scaff bar that he was stood on - with cows tail attached at his feet - i.e. pretty much as close to a ff1 fall as your realistically going to get.  Luckily, it was at a shaft entrance, not deep underground!

Did the cows tails break?
 

ianball11

Active member
SamT said:
mikem said:
Has there ever been a case of a cowstail breaking or a serious injury when someone has dropped onto their cowstail?

Mike

I know a certain shop owner at mytham bridge that seriously put his back out when slipping off a scaff bar that he was stood on - with cows tail attached at his feet - i.e. pretty much as close to a ff1 fall as your realistically going to get.  Luckily, it was at a shaft entrance, not deep underground!


Ouch!
 

SamT

Moderator
NOZ said:
Sam - this would be approaching FF2

Oop - your right of course..  :-[

and no they didn't break or Shaun would no longer be with us, since it was at the top of JH.
 

mikem

Well-known member
Probably the most relevant test for Bob then is whether a hand tightened barrel knot absorbs any more force on the drop test than a pre-loaded one...

Mike
 
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