Remembrance

[Smiley Alan]

so becos youve never seen it , it does'nt happen . deluded

 

[Vulcan]

your eiter deluded , lieing , jokeing , mad , or have'nt been caveing long .

As I said, maybe I just cave with an aware bunch. I am neither lying, mad, deluded or joking. As for how long, it's about 10 years. Maybe you just cave with a bunch of idiots, and expect damage, littering etc.

I would say the same. Everyone I cave with fully respects the environment of the cave.

Oh, as an aside, computers, even portable ones such as a phone or tablet, have a spellcheck function. You may well have a disability that causes your piss-poor spelling, but please, don't let it hold you back, we have the technology to overcome it these days.

Although not relevant here, spell checkers don't always help - I find they often correct my spellings to the wrong word, but spelt correctly, and I can't see its the wrong word in the sentence.

 

[Smiley Alan]

so i dreamt seeeing rubbesh  and broke stal then obvously . my mistake . sorry i'll STFU twats

 

[Roger W]

Can we keep it polite, please, folks?

It's good that some of us seem to have spent all our caving days in the company of careful, responsible cavers. 

It would be nice to think that everyone in the caving world was like that.  Unfortunately, they aint.  A fairly short acquaintance with the various threads on this forum should make it clear that all sorts of people go underground, from careful folk who move carefully and respect the cave, through the careless and clumsy who accidenta?y break stal and muddy flowstone, to the downright unspeakable who seem to take a perverse delight in deliberatel? causing damage.

A love for going underground does not seem to be the same thing as a love for the caves themselves, and I can well imagine that there are some people who really enjoy going caving - that is, they like the experience of being underground, abseiling into the abyss, squeezing themselves through the tightest of crevices and getting themselves soaked, mu?dy, and probably boozed up afterwards - without caring at all about the condition of the caves they are privileged to enjoy.

And if you haven't met any of these folk - or seen (and wept over) the evidence of their presence - it doesn't mean that they don't exist.

So let's save our vituperation for the vandals and not be rude to each other.  After all, it is the season of goodwill.

 

[NewStuff]

so i dreamt seeeing rubbesh  and broke stal then obvously . my mistake . sorry i'll STFU twats

Let me see if I understand this - You've seen it (Damage, litter, whatever), that means everybody knows somebody that does that? If we say we don't then we are telling lies? That seems to be what you're getting at. No-one is saying it doesn't happen. We are saying that cavers are unlikely to be the culprits, and in our experience caving, no-one we cave with has done that. Usually (as far as I have experienced) it's local kids. For the most part, they are not cavers, they don't know any better. You would be amazed how far I've found them into a system/workings, only equipped with a ropey looking pair of wellies and a crap hand torch.

I'd suggest changing your choice of words, before you get it changed for you. I know better than most how that works.

Vulcan - A Spellchecker would likely alleviate the worst of his issues, it was a genuine attempt to be helpful, as a particularly dyslexic friend says he finds it very useful.

 

[Fulk]

Well said Roger; I doubt very much whether a bunch of local kids

only equipped with a ropey looking pair of wellies and a crap hand torch

would ever get to, say, Easter Grotto ? but nevertheless it's been mucked up, if not totally trashed. So I guess it must have been cavers who were responsible.

 

[cap n chris]

Not for one moment does it means that "everybody knows somebody that does that". What it does mean is that damage and littering certainly takes place in caves (the evidence is irrefutable, but doubtless someone will attempt to nay-say that), and most definitely some of that damage is caused by cavers. Vide the Conservation Award clear-ups, for numerous examples. Live in denial if you must. It doesn't make your world-view true.

Furthermore, under the new proposed open access regime, any member of the public who calls themselves a caver IS a caver, as other thread(s) have concluded. Ill-educated, or even un-educated, people comprise some of the corpus of British caving and to argue otherwise is indeed deluded, as Alan pointed out earlier.

Having witnessed wanton vandalism (stones thrown through curtain formations) a long way down in multi-pitch SRT caves overseas, this is most definitely caver territory, wandering rag-tags of gobby children did not cause that damage, for sure.

Merry Christmas.

 

[NewStuff]

I have no reason to disagree with you. My point throughout this, is and has been, that I have never seen it happen. At no point have I, or would I, say it doesn't happen. As for who or why? I have no idea, it's retarded to do such things, but anyone I explore with would not do such things.

You seem to think that because I haven't seen it happen, I'm saying it hasn't happened at all. I'm quite patently not, and I think you're being deliberately antagonistic by saying I am.

As for the "it's not kids" bit...

In my experience it is. However, that's just my experience, and I can't think of any multi-pitch epics around here that would prove otherwise.

 

[Fulk]

Well, NewStuff, I?m very glad that you haven?t witnessed vandalism underground, and I hope it stays that way. But consider the following little anecdote:

Many years ago when I had just started caving I went on a trip from Lancaster Hole to County Pot with the BPC. My ?mentors? were excellent in teaching me about caves and conservation, but we witnessed an appalling act of vandalism. (I think I?ve mentioned it before on this forum, but I figure that it merits repetition in the context of the current discussion.)

While in the vicinity of the Painter?s Palette (a fine formation, consisting of a tiny pool with cave ice and surrounded by coloured stal, fringed by two columns) we became aware of a couple of people approaching at high speed along the passage that we had just traversed, and moved aside to let them through; for those who don?t know the system, this is on the ?high-level route? where the passages are mostly very roomy ? there was certainly ample room for these guys in a passage that?s ~ 6 m (?) wide to get past without our having to squeeze up against the wall. Anyway, when they reached us the leading member of this pair walked straight through the Painter?s Palette, grabbing the two columns ? one in each hand ? and saying to his mate, ?This is the Painter?s Palette ? it used to be a nice formation ?til people started to walk through it?. None of our party could believe their eyes, and we were all just stunned ? we didn?t have the nous, balls, whatever to chase after them and beat them up. Then someone said ?Do you know who that was?? ?No.? ?Well, it was Xxxxx Yyyyy? ? who just happened to be a CNCC functionary at the time. I?ve never seen anything so blatant before or since ? but once was way more than enough.

Here we go ? at least it has recovered a bit in the intervening years:

 

[NewStuff]

Yet again.

Just because I have not witnessed it, does not mean it doesn't happen.It just hasn't happened around me. I'm sure you all have anecdotes coming out of your ears.

This is not a difficult concept, despite concerted efforts to make it appear otherwise.

None of this make's Kenilworth's asinine suggestion that we all, bar a select few, stop caving altogether, any more palatable.

 

[Vulcan]

Vulcan - A Spellchecker would likely alleviate the worst of his issues, it was a genuine attempt to be helpful, as a particularly dyslexic friend says he finds it very useful.

I agree it will solve most problems. I'm dyslexic myself and that is my personal experience with spell checkers. Apologies if that wasn't clear before.

 

[Badlad]

[gmod]Apologies in advance if this causes upset but I cannot stand by without comment. Smiley Alan is deceiving you all he is not dyslexsic and obviously up to no good on this thread. He is none other than an alternative log in for Cap'n Chris. We don't mind anonymity by forum users at all, and there may be some other users with two log ins, but we will out them if we find they are using them to deceive in a manner that is likely to cause trouble. Otherwise this is an interesting discussion -please let's keep civil. Merry Christmas[/gmod]

 

[cap n chris]

Does that invalidate any of Smiley Alan's comments, Tim? Anonymity is somehow incorrect here, now, then?

Happy to hear your considered and rational view on this, obviously privately because calling a moderator's decision into question publicly is a bannable offence. You own the forum, so you are free to ban me, and anyone else you disagree with. You can rewrite British cave history as you see fit, sir.

 

[Ian Adams]

sorry i'll STFU twats

Very VERY poor coming from an ex-moderator that knows better than to antagonise. It calls into question previous moderations and the former accusations of bias.

... What it does mean is that damage and littering certainly takes place in caves (the evidence is irrefutable, but doubtless someone will attempt to nay-say that)

Every cave?

Furthermore, under the new proposed open access regime, any member of the public who calls themselves a caver IS a caver, as other thread(s) have concluded.

That is a conflation. There is no ?proposed? open access regime and no where has it been stated that anyone who calls themselves a ?caver? is a caver. (This is the worst kind of ?spin? (or lie as it is otherwise known) that someone could impose upon us).

..... we became aware of a couple of people approaching at high speed along the passage that we had just traversed ....  Anyway, when they reached us the leading member of this pair walked straight through the Painter?s Palette, grabbing the two columns ? one in each hand ? and saying to his mate, ?This is the Painter?s Palette ? it used to be a nice formation ?til people started to walk through it?.

An excellent example of a pair of ?dicks? but not typical of ?cavers? (as we know them in general). Sadly, education, punishment, micro-management and prohibition will not not stop this from recurring. We are, after all, human beings. We may be able to mitigate but that is (sadly) as far as we can go.

You own the forum, so you are free to ban me, and anyone else you disagree with. You can rewrite British cave history as you see fit, sir.

I do not pretend to know what has happened between the two of you but I do know this;

? Your statement was unnecessarily aggressive and abusive since you were trying to deceive the rest of the caving populous that read this forum
? Victors (contrary to popular belief) do not write (or re-write) history. There is always an account of both sides.

I do believe in the season of goodwill and I like to think that Christmas is a time for neutrality and cheer. I find your previous ?Merry Christmas? statements to be disingenuous. Nevertheless, I do hope you and your family have a GREAT Christmas and (for a time at least) put all bitterness aside. There is plenty of time to resume the arguments later.

Until then ?.




Ian

 

[Kenilworth]

None of this make's Kenilworth's asinine suggestion that we all, bar a select few, stop caving altogether, any more palatable.

I have never made such a suggestion. Hopefully you're the only reader (if you have in fact read anything I've written) who has so dramatically misunderstood and misinterpreted.

 

[NewStuff]

Does that invalidate any of Smiley Alan's comments, Tim? Anonymity is somehow incorrect here, now, then?

Given that you, amongst others, saw no issue with people outing my real name, resulting in a conversation with my Boss, that's more than a little ironic, and has throughly made my Xmas.

On a personal note:- I'd strongly suggest putting the bottle down.

 

[cooleycr]

I'm sure that 'back in the day' when there were only 7 users on the message board that everyone had a pseudonym and it was a jolly jape, but it seems irrelevant now, seeing as how most people seem to know each other from the real world anyway.

If people will only insult others by hiding behind a made-up name then that is a sad thing indeed.