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Responsible cavers

PeteHall

Moderator
Smiley Alan said:
i red  somewere that there was plan to  print converstion code on the bca card so people new it  and wo'nt forget it . good idea .

Yes, it was proposed at the AGM. I believe it was accepted in principle, they are going to look at layout to see if it can be made to fit on. Like with anything else, doesn't prove a caver is responsible, but does ensure they have no excuse not to be.  (y)


Tommy said:
Surely lots of that 90% are club members, meaning a critical message sent to one member (Secretary) will disseminate to all, either by chatter or club announcement? Saves paper that too...

Don't worry about paper Tommy, the BCA newsletter goes via email. Anybody can sign up for it using BCA online, but so far, few have...
https://members.british-caving.org.uk/users/login
 

bograt

Active member
Cap'n Chris said:
From a landowner's point of view it is an important question. How do they know they are granting access to a RC?

There you go again, putting words into the mouths of landowners, I suspect a landowner can judge the ' level of responsibility' of a caver once he's met him, or alternatively consider handing over access control to a 'responsible access body', this is probably the bigger bone of contention--.

I also notice a little inconsistency in the last few postings;

Cap'n Chris said:
PS for everyone locked on beam with the CRoW topic please note this is completely different and actually non-related. So don't bother getting het up on that front, ta.

And two posts later ;
Cap'n Chris said:
Such access should be granted freely to any member of the public.

... would be the CRoW version; bear in mind though that many many many caves are not on Access land so don't confuse the two as being synonymous.


Oh dear Chris, in one comment you very politely ask us to abstain from this line of debate, then, two posts later you introduce it ---????
 
Not quite the same as this is aimed at clubs specifically, but the link below appears to be the BMC constitution.  I've searched the do and the only mention of "responsible" is in the context of being responsible for your own decisions / accepting risks.

Doesn't appear to be any stipulation that members are expected to be "responsible" regarding their behaviour.....

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/Download.aspx?id=90

 

mikem

Well-known member
MJenkinson said:
Not quite the same as this is aimed at clubs specifically, but the link below appears to be the BMC constitution.  I've searched the do and the only mention of "responsible" is in the context of being responsible for your own decisions / accepting risks.

Doesn't appear to be any stipulation that members are expected to be "responsible" regarding their behaviour.....

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/Download.aspx?id=90
& if you visit any crags you'll probably have noticed that the wear & tear and amount of litter have increased over the last few years - but then they have access & don't need to worry so much, but still undertake to inform their membership about responsible access (after all it is still part of the CRoW conditions as well) - so they produce various "green guides" that cover it.

British Canoeing have a similar (if not worse) problem with access than cavers & emphasise responsible access:
https://www.britishcanoeing.org.uk/guidance-resources/waterways-environment/environmental-good-practice/

Mike
 

fredthedog

New member
bograt said:
I suspect a landowner can judge the ' level of responsibility' of a caver once he's met him,

I don't see how anyone can judge someone at first sight. The 'cavers' who turned up at the Hunters' Lodge no doubt smiled sweetly when they asked Roger Dors for the key and smiled just as sweetly when they handed him back the key after having trashed his cave. Sadly people don't turn up with 'complete tw*t' tattooed on their foreheads.

Based on that example, I can't see how anyone can argue that you can judge any caver's level of responsibility at first sight. And for all we know, those cavers might even have come back twice on their wrecking spree. They probably smiled sweetly then, as well.
 

Brains

Well-known member
cavermark said:
Brains said:
Could you quote some other examples please, eg ramblers, paddlers, climbers NGB constitution. CBA myself but then it is you that raised that bit of mischief
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmc-core-policies
See point 2b
Thank you. No mention of how to define , certify or manage the concept.
Previous posts have now covered this issue adequately - this thread is now an irrelevance to caving.
2a seems much more admirable
 

Ian Adams

Active member
Fred the dog,

Any idea who the cavers were that borrowed the key or when they borrowed it?

(can it be narrowed down)?

:)

Ian
 

fredthedog

New member
Jackalpup, I don't know the exact dates, but I believe it's been narrowed down to a period of a month. If Estelle posts on here, she might be able to update you.
 

NewStuff

New member
So, this incident would, in my opinion of you lot, be a most opportune moment to press forward with your "Gate all the caves" approach, given you appear to be using the lowest common denominator approach and not giving the majority of cavers a shred of credit.

It's a logical progression from (I'm paraphrasing) not being able to trust anyone on first sight. With that, we're back to access being who you know and funny handshakes, which is the way you seem to like it.

fredthedog said:
bograt said:
I suspect a landowner can judge the ' level of responsibility' of a caver once he's met him,

I don't see how anyone can judge someone at first sight. The 'cavers' who turned up at the Hunters' Lodge no doubt smiled sweetly when they asked Roger Dors for the key and smiled just as sweetly when they handed him back the key after having trashed his cave. Sadly people don't turn up with 'complete tw*t' tattooed on their foreheads.

Based on that example, I can't see how anyone can argue that you can judge any caver's level of responsibility at first sight. And for all we know, those cavers might even have come back twice on their wrecking spree. They probably smiled sweetly then, as well.
 

mikem

Well-known member
The landlord is pretty sure he hasn't been asked for the key by anyone who didn't appear to be a bonafide caver, however, there is an outside chance that someone entered whilst another group were underground - as the main damage is in the first chamber and it wasn't felt necessary to lock the gate behind you as it is quite a committing entrance.

Mike
 

RobinGriffiths

Well-known member
Should there not be a Responsible Landowner initiative as well? With some sort of Don't put tyres, barbed wire, dead sheep, old vehicles, diesel oil, farmyard waste etc. Into holes. And try not to festoon hedges in general with fragments of black polythene.
 

Ed

Active member
RobinGriffiths said:
Should there not be a Responsible Landowner initiative as well? With some sort of Don't put tyres, barbed wire, dead sheep, old vehicles, diesel oil, farmyard waste etc. Into holes. And try not to festoon hedges in general with fragments of black polythene.


There is. It is called The Environmental Protection Act 1990 Part 2. and Animal By-Products (Enforcement) (England) Regulations 2013

It is just not enforced against farmers as much as it should be
 

Alex

Well-known member
Yeh I know of at least one location where a farmer has done this recently i.e. Logan hole. The entrance was lidded, there was no way those 3 or 4 sheep fell down there on their own!
 

pwhole

Well-known member
Indeed - I went up to a small hole I'd found last year to attempt to pull out a rock that would hopefully give further access, only to find three small pairs of furry white hind legs poking out of it - they'd been stuffed in there like a cork in a bottle. Needless to say I was rather peeved about this, not least as it was on land that I thought would be managed more respectfully, let's say. We had permission to check shaft-tops, so we weren't breaking any rules. But it's their land, so stomping over and complaining wouldn't have had the desired effect, even though it's a SSSI. So we'll just have to wait until next year until they've hopefully rotted away, and I can try again. But it does make the 'Guardians of the Environment' angle a bit harder to swallow when you find stuff like this.

Some of the tales I've heard about dumping in shafts and opencuts on Dirtlow Rake in Castleton, and Moss Rake in Bradwell in the 70s and 80s don't bear thinking about in terms of cave/mine/water pollution downstream. Most of those incidents would ultimately have ended up in the River Derwent - or are still possibly stuck in sediments in the Peak-Speedwell system. This little find stunk particularly badly.
 

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Clive G

Member
pwhole said:
Indeed - I went up to a small hole I'd found last year to attempt to pull out a rock that would hopefully give further access, only to find three small pairs of furry white hind legs poking out of it - they'd been stuffed in there like a cork in a bottle . . .

The farmers do it to keep out badgers and foxes from making a sett and breeding!

And if you do end up with a badger in residence inside your dig, that is how and whereby the name for Ogof Ffw arose!

 
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