Restoration of Perennial Flow in the River Lathkill upstream of Bubble Springs

[martinm]

And my understand of the purpose of SSSI schedules is to conserve the situation at the time of scheduling, not that of some point in the mythical past which can no longer be clearly defined, far less achieved.

Graham, can you point me to somewhere that states this? I've just printed out the SSSI citation for Lathkill Dale which includes this:-

Status: Site of Special Scientific Interest (SSSI) notified under Section 28 of the
Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 as amended. Major part of site National Nature
Reserve (NNR) declared under Section 19 of the National Parks and Access to the
Countryside Act 1949.

I'm sure there must be something in those acts somewhere which says something about it! Any help appreciated. Mel.

 

[graham]

Mel

Section 28 does mention enhancing but it also states that:

(4)A notification under subsection (1)(b) shall also specify?

(a)the flora, fauna, or geological or physiographical features by reason of which the land is of special interest, and

(b)any operations appearing to Natural England to be likely to damage that flora or fauna or those features,

(my emphasis)

So, what is important for the SSSI protection is what features were notified, exactly.

 

[martinm]

Mel. So, what is important for the SSSI protection is what features were notified, exactly.

Hmm, thanx. Trouble is the citation doesn't go into enough detail about either the river or the  caves, which could be a problem........

 

[graham]

Finally got the chance to go for a womble down Lathkill Dale on Monday evening.

Nice place, lots of interesting risings & stuff that aren't in COPD. Lathkill Head Cave was dry, the highest that water was rising was about 50 m above the footbridge.

 

[exsumper]

The cynics may scoff, but restoring water flow to currently dry river valleys in karst areas of the British Isles, could well be the boost that the economy needs?

Think of the benefits that restoring river flow to the dry valleys of the Mendip Hills alone would bring! It would provide lucrative employment for impoverished  professors of geology for years to come! Full employment  for commercial cavers and the  refrigeration industry!  The design, construction and installation of the massive refrigeration plant required to restore the natural Arctic perma-frost conditions that have prevailed for significant periods of the Pleistocene would take decades!

I know that glaciation would be a bit of a pain, but its worth thinking about.

These ideas are no dafter than trying to restore "perennial flow"sic to Lathkill Dale!

 

[shotlighter]

The cynics may scoff, but restoring water flow to currently dry river valleys in karst areas of the British Isles, could well be the boost that the economy needs?

Think of the benefits that restoring river flow to the dry valleys of the Mendip Hills alone would bring! It would provide lucrative employment for impoverished  professors of geology for years to come!

These ideas are no dafter than trying to restore "perennial flow"sic to Lathkill Dale!

At last, someone who's hit the nail on the head - maintaining a certain hydrology depts. research funding seems to be the main benefit!

 

[Lampwick]

I know that glaciation would be a bit of a pain, but its worth thinking about.

I agree that the diminishing flows are a product of climate change, but wouldn't NE's money be better spent on finding ways to make it rain more in summer?


... and while I'm still taking this seriously ...

Hmm, thanx. Trouble is the citation doesn't go into enough detail about either the river or the caves, which could be a problem........

The citation doesn't need to go into detail, the baseline survey against which all assessments are compared to would though.

In the case of caves, the Peak District SSSI Cave Conservation Monitoring Scheme is recognised by NE (with a sustifticate to prove it) as part of the monitoring process.  I suppose that if a subsequent monitoring visit by a caver reported that access was permanently lost, that would result in an unfavourable destroyed condition.  NE would be duty bound to persue the offender, and erm... take itself to court?  :-\


and finally...

At last, someone who's hit the nail on the head - maintaining a certain hydrology depts. research funding seems to be the main benefit!

Yup, and don't forget the fishing (sorry Alec).

 

[martinm]

Hmm, thanx. Trouble is the citation doesn't go into enough detail about either the river or the caves, which could be a problem........

The citation doesn't need to go into detail, the baseline survey against which all assessments are compared to would though.
In the case of caves, the Peak District SSSI Cave Conservation Monitoring Scheme is recognised by NE (with a sustifticate to prove it) as part of the monitoring process.  I suppose that if a subsequent monitoring visit by a caver reported that access was permanently lost, that would result in an unfavourable destroyed condition.  NE would be duty bound to persue the offender, and erm... take itself to court?  :-\

I'm sorry, but you need to read up on a few things. Firstly, I suggest you read through this pdf:-

http://publications.naturalengland.org.uk/publication/6364771410509824?category=587130

It has some of my feedback in it about underground watercourses, protecting caves, etc.

Secondly, your comments about the Peak District SSSI Cave Conservation Monitoring Scheme and comments about NE having to sue itself, etc. are wrong. NE DOES NOT ask cavers to monitor caves due to this exact problem. Read the disclaimer:-

http://www.peakcavemonitoring.org.uk/images/stories/disclaimer.doc

Also the text on the web site:-

Some important points:

1. Recording and completion of forms must only be done as part of a normal caving trip.

It is totally voluntary.

Any problem caused by any cave/mine explorer are their problem and nowt to do with NE.

Regards Mel. DCA Conservation Officer.

 

[zippy]

A little (and usually very well informed) birdy told me last light that the current estimate for this project has now reached ?1.4 million 

 

[martinm]

A little (and usually very well informed) birdy told me last light that the current estimate for this project has now reached ?1.4 million 

Wow! That's quite an increase from the ?150k I heard was initially being thought about. Not worth it, surely?  :-\

 

[Les W]

Wow! That's quite an increase from the ?150k I heard was initially being thought about. Not worth it, surely?  :-\

Never underestimate the ability of government agencies to waste our money... 

 

[graham]

Wonder what proportion of that is consultancy fees.  :-\

 

[Ground Trog]

A little (and usually very well informed) birdy told me last light that the current estimate for this project has now reached ?1.4 million 

You can tell that orange van driver owt knowing it will surely get back to Winster. 

 

[Inskia]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-28650376

But of course the project must happen regardless to help those poor fish....... ...

 

[AR]

I find this most curious, as on Sunday morning I went for a walk in the dale and observed a good flow at Carter's mill and a reasonable but to my eye lesser flow at Batemans. If water levels are so bad lower down that the fish are having to be rescued, I wonder why that would be?

 

[AR]

Having been lower down the dale last night, I found the river was completely dry at Lathkill Lodge ford, but at the point the Mandale Sough tail goit joins the river I could hear running water although there was none coming over the weir. Hopping over the goit and out onto the weir, it was apparent that water was getting into the top of the dam but not getting as far as the sluice, slightly further upstream I also noticed a leak out of one of the dams into the goit which was immediately disappearing. By Mandale Mine, there was a decent flow in the river, roughly about the same as I'd noticed on Sunday by Bateman's House.

 

[LathkillDaleFFC]

Hi there.Glad to see that people are still interested in this thread. It is at this time of year that it becomes most relevant. Currently there is no flow out of Lathkill Head cave but still good flow in the upper reaches, (Carters Mill), from the springs that rise downstream from the cave. We now dont have water flowing through the whole system due to the losses we incur into the Lathkill Dale sough. If anyone wants to meet up and have a look at the sub-terranial river then please get in touch. Please let us us talk more about this with an open mind. Many thanks, Alec, Lathkill Dale River Keeper.

 

[droid]

So where is blocking Magpie Sough going to help losses in Lathkill Dale Sough?

 

[LathkillDaleFFC]

Hi Droid, I hope you was at the meeting for cavers about this project? If you were then you will realise that the Lathkill Restoration Project is a two pronged attack. Neither works without the other. If we put a control structure in Lathkill sough it will prolong the flow through the Dale but not solve it. Likewise the Lathkill sough will run dry as long as the Magpie sough is open. Thanks for your interest.

 

[droid]

I was not at the meeting, for reasons I've already stated on many occasions.
So i rather rely on informed folks such as yourself.

Please elaborate on your above statement: what is your evidence for the connection between Magpie flow and Lathkill Dale Sough flow. They drain different mines as far as I know.