Serious CO2 problem in Nettle Pot
- Thread starter Jenny P
- Start date
al
Member
Gollum said:If Derbyshire is so bad wouldn't it be an idea for all Derbyshire clubs to get a meter? What is DCA doing apart from sending out warnings. We can't just keep restricting access because fat lad got out of breath coming out a cave/mine :ang:
If we keep restricting access then i'm going to have to spend more evenings and weekends at home with her and the kids so SORT IT OUT
Now, now!! You mustn't call him "fat lad"! I have it on good authority (and in writing) that he's very fit.
To be fair, the DCA had to issue a warning, having received such an unfavourable report. Unfortunately the report wasn't accompanied by any meter readings, and we all know that Nettle can be very strenuous - the effects of depleted oxygen can seem much worse than they would in a horizontal system like Hillocks. However, we organised a trip down Nettle to actually measure the levels of CO2 at the earliest opportunity.
You're right. It would be good if all clubs owned and used a meter - the same should go for all centres operating in the Peak (surprised they don't already).
What can DCA do? DCA can educate cavers about the problem - and if you look in the new DCA Handbook, there's a page about it with some very good advice.
DCA can monitor the situation. On DCA's behalf, I'm now collating all statistics on this, ranging from basic, subjective reports to meter readings, and continuing the work which Christine Wilson started back in 2009. It is important that we do not lose this information.
As well as other cavers sampling other caves and mines, Christine took readings on a regular basis in Bagshawe Cavern between 2009 and 2010 and, based upon this work, she managed to get a correlation from of the figures, the findings of which she presented to the BCRA in 2010. Constant temperatures over 9 deg Celsius will cause the problem, especially when accompanied by regular low pressure - the theory seems to be holding true.
As cavers, we all need to be aware of the problem, to recognise the symptoms and to anticipate the problems. Lack of oxygen doesn't always make you think straight and the reactions of different people can vary dramatically, physiologically and psychologically. A total novice might just give up in the face of breathing difficulties, while your rock 'ard Northern caver will tend to soldier on until it's almost too late.
We do have a problem in the Peak (although it wasn't too bad during 2010 and 2011, was it?) and we should treat it like all other caving problems. As I said, I'm keeping a record of all reports (including NIL reports) - so please keep me informed!
martinm
New member
global_s said:Well that was hard work - not because of the CO2 I just found going up in such a tight space a bit tricky. Quick question...where an earth are the P Bolts for the top of Elizabeth Shaft?
See page 2:14 of the DCA Handbook and page 101 of the CoPD? Can't be any more detailed, soz.
al
Member
global_s said:Quick question...where an earth are the P Bolts for the top of Elizabeth Shaft?
If you descend the Gulley Pitch with your feet against the wall, when you get to the bottom, the top of the Elizabeth Shaft is to your left and slightly behind you - the big hole to your right also goes into Elizabeth, but is chossy and dangerous and not bolted.
What was the air quality like?
global_s
New member
I've never been down a cave with high C02 and I didn't have a meter, so it's hard to give a useful report I'm afraid. That said we kept it mind, but it's hard to know at what point it was real and what point imagination. Is the Gulley Pitch the below the flats? If so we both noticed it being slightly harder coming up for a short easy pitch.
Descending from through the shaft, we hit the bottom, traversed left from the P Bolt and straight behind us was the unbolted pitch, although we saw lots of old spit placements, so should we have come of the rope and wondered round a bit more. Both had good lighting, but neither of us obviously went far enough left to see the pitch we wanted.
Worth noting for anybody doing it from an older rigging guide that rope lengths given are incorrect. It says you need 28m and a 35m. We packed a 60m and didn't quite get us down. Looking at the newer one I downloaded from the DCA it says you need a 70m, which would have worked.
Bit of a derail, but does anyone mind giving me a bit more info on the history and formation of this cave. As I descended I saw scalloping pointing downwards....Does this mean that there was a vertical joint that was expanded? The guide says it was dug out. Would this have meant it was just a small hole, filled with mud, but subsequent water has washed the walls clean?
Descending from through the shaft, we hit the bottom, traversed left from the P Bolt and straight behind us was the unbolted pitch, although we saw lots of old spit placements, so should we have come of the rope and wondered round a bit more. Both had good lighting, but neither of us obviously went far enough left to see the pitch we wanted.
Worth noting for anybody doing it from an older rigging guide that rope lengths given are incorrect. It says you need 28m and a 35m. We packed a 60m and didn't quite get us down. Looking at the newer one I downloaded from the DCA it says you need a 70m, which would have worked.
Bit of a derail, but does anyone mind giving me a bit more info on the history and formation of this cave. As I descended I saw scalloping pointing downwards....Does this mean that there was a vertical joint that was expanded? The guide says it was dug out. Would this have meant it was just a small hole, filled with mud, but subsequent water has washed the walls clean?
global_s
New member
bograt said:global_s said:Well that was hard work - not because of the CO2 I just found going up in such a tight space a bit tricky. Quick question...where an earth are the P Bolts for the top of Elizabeth Shaft?
The Narrow's have always been interesting, the clue is in the name.
Yeah, thanks for that.
Ah this is why I'm loving caving so much at the moment, each trip is a new adventure and feel like I'm learning loads each time. Maskhill bottomed out and started exploring Nettle. It's been a good week. 8)
al
Member
global_s said:
28m and 35m are still the numbers in the latest CCPC rigging guide, and I can vouch that these lengths work as I checked before we published the latest one. But 28 + 35 = 63, so it's hardly surprising that a 60m rope didn't quite get you down!!
Also, different riggers use more or less rope, depending on rigging style, and sometimes it's worth having that little bit extra, just in case!
Thanks for your comments on CO2 levels, and I'm glad you were impressed with Nettle, it's one of my favourite Peak District pots - it never ceases to impress me. Just imagine what it was like to dig into that in the old days!
global_s
New member
Would they have dug out the shaft to be greeted with all the options when they got out the flats? That must have been quite something to discover...maybe I can start to see the appeal of digging...still there are lots of caves to do where the hard work has been done for me.
Massive facepalm at myself for rope lengths. This was a new rope so 66m before I soaked it overnight, do they lose their 10% that fast? We were a fair bit from the deck. Not the end of the world though as we had another 20m to hand. Interestly the DCA and Caves of the Peak District suggest a 70m.
Massive facepalm at myself for rope lengths. This was a new rope so 66m before I soaked it overnight, do they lose their 10% that fast? We were a fair bit from the deck. Not the end of the world though as we had another 20m to hand. Interestly the DCA and Caves of the Peak District suggest a 70m.
al
Member
The diagram you show seems to imply that the gulley pitch lands you right at the top of Elizabeth Shaft. It doesn't as I said above - the CCPC version is a little more accurate but all rigging guides are kind of schematic, and you have to look around you. Worth buying a copy of the CCPC rigging guide next time you're in Hitch & Hike as it does try to cover all the vertical stuff in the Peak.
As you've found, rigging lengths might be less than you expect, but, as far as I am aware, they are all accurate and possible - it is different riggers' styles which can and do cause variations (and the CCPC guide states this fact on every rigging diagram) - a tight caver's butterfly for instance will use less rope than a bowline or fig-8 o.t.b.
But we can all get it wrong sometimes - even me, ask Scud!!
As you've found, rigging lengths might be less than you expect, but, as far as I am aware, they are all accurate and possible - it is different riggers' styles which can and do cause variations (and the CCPC guide states this fact on every rigging diagram) - a tight caver's butterfly for instance will use less rope than a bowline or fig-8 o.t.b.
But we can all get it wrong sometimes - even me, ask Scud!!
A CO2 meter is an expensive bit of kit, an O2 meter is well within the reach of an individual or small club.
Trials are currently taking place comparing the results using both types of meter. This was done some years ago and the results were considered to be acceptable.
If the O2 meter says the air is poor get out. The precise level of O2 (or pollutant) is academic.
Trials are currently taking place comparing the results using both types of meter. This was done some years ago and the results were considered to be acceptable.
If the O2 meter says the air is poor get out. The precise level of O2 (or pollutant) is academic.
pwhole
Well-known member
On the history part, the entrance was discovered in 1932 by W. Sissons (a good friend of JW Puttrell and founder member of the DPC and others) and his dog, Nettle, who was chasing rabbits at the time. Apparently a rabbit disappeared into a small hole in a tiny hollow, some boulders were removed and a natural rift opening was discovered, and was draughting. So he got to work clearing it out and found it kept going downwards.
A proper dig was then initiated which lasted for about two years, and was often so tight that the diggers had to be suspended upside-down from a rope around their ankles to enable them to clear out the chokes of mud and small boulders from The Narrows. Obviously there's no room for a person and a bucket of spoil down there, so one can only imagine at the gymnastics involved. If you think it's difficult now we have SRT and Pantins, imagine what it was like then dressed in thick woolies, and on hemp rope ladders with shovels and buckets!
Eventually they got past the Narrows, and presumably the dig then got a lot easier as they could kick it all down instead of hauling it up. As far as I can tell, the main pitches down were all open once they reached the Gulley. No idea on the subsequent exploration as it was 1953 (Coronation year) before Elizabeth was descended - hence the name. A wooden winch was lowered in pieces and reassembled underground for the first descents.
A proper dig was then initiated which lasted for about two years, and was often so tight that the diggers had to be suspended upside-down from a rope around their ankles to enable them to clear out the chokes of mud and small boulders from The Narrows. Obviously there's no room for a person and a bucket of spoil down there, so one can only imagine at the gymnastics involved. If you think it's difficult now we have SRT and Pantins, imagine what it was like then dressed in thick woolies, and on hemp rope ladders with shovels and buckets!
Eventually they got past the Narrows, and presumably the dig then got a lot easier as they could kick it all down instead of hauling it up. As far as I can tell, the main pitches down were all open once they reached the Gulley. No idea on the subsequent exploration as it was 1953 (Coronation year) before Elizabeth was descended - hence the name. A wooden winch was lowered in pieces and reassembled underground for the first descents.
pwhole
Well-known member
Cheers - only paraphrasing, of course. Re-draft as 'breathing'
I think it must have have been in Puttrell's scrapbook at Sheffield Library where I read the original discovery account. I'm guessing it was more of the 'Carnation tin'-type situation - where one hole won't draught, but two imediately will. Didn't mean the thing was blasting in his face, just there were obvious voids beyond.
I think it must have have been in Puttrell's scrapbook at Sheffield Library where I read the original discovery account. I'm guessing it was more of the 'Carnation tin'-type situation - where one hole won't draught, but two imediately will. Didn't mean the thing was blasting in his face, just there were obvious voids beyond.