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Slinging Stage Cylinders

Eh up, er Pitlamp..!

You've been there! Admittedly it's not a well known location though.
One or two people may know it but we could have a few guesses first....

Dan.
 
And the prize goes to.......Pitlamp!

By coincidence, JNC has dived the "upstream" sump in there!

The pic is me standing on the boulder slope at the bottom of the short ladder pitch just beyond the breakthrough point. John Beck took the photograph. It all starts out so big in P7 before closing down into diminishing rifts.........:(
 

Joel Corrigan

New member
Well, I waited for my original post to be posted back again but no joy.  Sorry, Mike, can't be arsed to recreate my short essay about the bottle slinging as I was in one of my irritable-yet-creative moods when I wrote it!  Basically, though, I went off on one about the dangers of screwgates in a sump when one has ice-cold, neoprene-coated, slippery digits in place of fingers and pointed out that I'd had enoug hassle undoing cross-loaded crabs on pitches as well as underwater.  I for one would not be here today if I used screwgates in place of snaps.  Think I also suggested filing off snaggy bits on the gate itself, spinning them around so that they faced into the body so that when you backed into the line there was less chance of a snag etc... 

Looking at the original photos I think I suggested the topmost set of crabs be replaced with screwgates or maillons but the lower (bottle) crab stay as a (spun) snap.  The whole point of this type of set up is so that you can don and ditch things in a jiffy and not arse about with undoing things....  I would rather be able to get rid of my bottles in a squeeze when the poo has hit the fan and accept that there is a risk of line snags.  Dealing with rogue line is all part of the game and I know what I'd prefer out of a choice of semi-permanently attached bottles or line in my crab.  As MSD points out the chest elastic system really is very versatile and allows you to carry a phenomenal amount of kit.  It can be modified to carry bottles on your side behind or in front of your main sidemounts. 

Other things I think I went off on were high-pressure bottles (very heavy, difficult to get decent fills, can often not be used by anyone else unless they've got deep-DIN threads, and troublesome for buoyancy if you need to take bottles off underwater etc), boots on bottles (snaggy, heavy, less streamlined), and ally cylinders (just a pointless invention from a cave divers point of view!). 

Think that's the jist (gist?) of what I said although I haven't tried to justify many of my sweeping statements this time!  Appreciate the apologies from the moderators on this site although I struggle to see how my original post could have been modified so drastically.  I've never spoken to Johnny, we didn't argue the toss, I didn't mention the peak district, and the entire thing is just rather bemusing.  If I go to the trouble of writing something then I don't expect people to alter my words without discussing it with me first.  Clive Gardner did that to an article that I submitted for Cakes and Caking years ago and I've not written an article since. 
 

Duncan Price

Active member
Joel Corrigan said:
Well, I waited for my original post to be posted back again but no joy.  Sorry, Mike, can't be arsed to recreate my short essay about the bottle slinging as I was in one of my irritable-yet-creative moods when I wrote it!  Basically, though, I went off on one about the dangers of screwgates in a sump when one has ice-cold, neoprene-coated, slippery digits in place of fingers and pointed out that I'd had enoug hassle undoing cross-loaded crabs on pitches as well as underwater.  I for one would not be here today if I used screwgates in place of snaps.  Think I also suggested filing off snaggy bits on the gate itself, spinning them around so that they faced into the body so that when you backed into the line there was less chance of a snag etc... 

I agree with everything Joel said.  Snaps are better than screwgates - in fact I tend to use cheapo accessory ones rather than climbing ones from such places as Poundland etc.  Since the attachment points on the tanks are handed to face the body I permanently keep a snap on each tank and stop it rotating by a retainer made from a figure 8'd cable tie.  DIR types use bolt snaps and string but I prefer lots of naughty metal-metal connections.
 

SamT

Moderator
Joel Corrigan said:
Appreciate the apologies from the moderators on this site although I struggle to see how my original post could have been modified so drastically.  I've never spoken to Johnny, we didn't argue the toss, I didn't mention the peak district, and the entire thing is just rather bemusing.  If I go to the trouble of writing something then I don't expect people to alter my words without discussing it with me first.  Clive Gardner did that to an article that I submitted for Cakes and Caking years ago and I've not written an article since.   

Joel - I get the distinct impression that you think I deliberately edited your post. Let me try and explain.

Right - this is how it happened.

I read joels original post.

Went to use the quote button (but accidently hit the edit button).
Normally - when you hit 'quote' it presents you with a reply screen - with all the text from joel - wrapped with quote tags.
What I had - was the reply window - with joels text at the top - only there were no quote tags, because I had *accidently* hit the edit button. I was unaware at the time that I was actually editing Joels post.

I proceeded to ramble on about how *I'd* spoken to Johnny etc etc.
Whilst writing what I though was my reply - I decided that to *quote* joel was unnessacery and it would make the thread less readable (I hate threads with increasing sized posts as people repeatedly use the quote button).
I therefore deleted the text at the top of the reply window, leaving just my reply.

Since I was mistakenly in Edit mode - rather that in quote mode, I effectively deleted joels post - replacing it with my reply (about phoning johnny etc).

So...... I hope you can get your head round that Joel. I really hope you dont think that it was in anyway deliberate. There was no intention to touch your post. I also hope it doesnt put you off posting. Your post was one of the more consise - on topic - informative and well considered style posts and Im sorry its been lost (because I effectively overtyped it).

Hope this is the end of it - and no hard feelings.

[/fiasco]
 

mike barnes

New member
Of course, the obvious solution is to get someone else to carry the 2 extra 7's for you, or another diver to take 1 whilst you take the other and he kindly waits whilst you go have all the fun. Failing that, there are maybe a few useful things I picked up over the years. The krabs you feature are ordinary ones and whilst Joels point of filing of the hook helps, I've always found them still to be a pain. There is a krab made by, I think, Troll which has a qenius yet simple design of a bulge in the gate to replace the hook, going into a bulged shaped slot in the body. Whilst rather expensive, I recall about £9, they have to be used to be believed. Frayed gloves, line, no matter how thin or anything will snag again. You'll never go back to ordinary krabs again. Something Pete Mulholland came up with, though it never caught on, was to use the thick black rubber rings used for mounting car exhausts. I still use this method which is; the rubber ring is fixed to the tank with the now standard jubilee. I put several laps of tape on the jubilee, otherwise over time it starts to cut through the ring. The ring now sits proud on the tank and is easily clipped, and unclipped, to the above mentioned krab which is in the usual poisition on the harness. Likewise the top being held by bungy in the normal way. In the last 10 yrs or so of using this method, I've never had a line clip into the krabs and if it did, it would be easy to remove. The rings have to be the thicker rubber to survive and will easily take the wieght of 15's for a few years.

As for extra tanks, the bottle bra mentioned by Joel works a treat but Pete Bolt and I modified the lower part to suit us. Whilst pushing the terminal sump in Wookey in the 90's, we found it bloody hard getting a tank into the lower part when in zero vis using just 1 hand. I like to keep 1 hand on the line when in crap vis, even if in theory, it should be just beside me. What we did was put another 2 of the aforementioned krabs on the front of the harness, in line with each thigh. Then, when returning to the stage, the krab is easily clipped into the rubber loop of the stage. The hand then pulls the 1st stage up to the chest to pull over the bottle bra. In your case, I've also found that this system keeps them in place whilst walking, though bugger me, I wouldn't go more than a few m's like this cause you can't see yr feet, not to mention the weight. I'd put them in a sack when through the sump. When I look at my kit again, I'll see if the krabs have a name or whatever, and I'll let you know. Trust me, they are worth every penny.
Cheers, Mike Barnes
 

mike barnes

New member
Johnny, After looking again at yr pics, I should say that my krabs are on the harness in about the poisition where yr d- rings are on the lower pic. The rubber ring sits where the krab is on the tank. Not sure about the krab you've got up near your arm pit. With valves on and all kit, that could be a sod to catch a line in
 
M

Mike W

Guest
Re non-snag krabs - there are various styles from different manufacturers, but the ones I like best are the chunky red and gold variety which I thought were Troll, but turn out to be Wild Country "Oxygen Clean-lock" ( usually around £9 ).
 

Johnny

New member
Thanks all for your comments/suggestions. I tried some of them whilst transporting six cylinders through Buxton Water the other day, gave up and carried them through in my hand one by one. I guess I just need to practice.

Thanks mike for the suggestion on the Oxygen krabs, I do normally use these on my own cylinders, camp (I think) used to do one similar and I used them for nuts on my climbing rack, they stopped the wire getting caught in the hook.

Sorry that your post got lost Joel, I am sorry that I missed it. I would like to take issue with one comment that you have made...

Joel Corrigan said:
Other things I think I went off on were high-pressure bottles (very heavy, difficult to get decent fills, can often not be used by anyone else unless they've got deep-DIN threads, and troublesome for buoyancy if you need to take bottles off underwater etc),   

I have heard a lot of negative comments about high-pressure bottles, which is fine, they do have thier drawbacks. I personally think that they have thier place. Most cave divers do not have deep din threads because they insist on using bloody antiquated, out of date, impossible to get spares for, Cyclon 300 first stages. People say that they are heavy, they are but my 300bar 7's are great with my semi-dry as I do not need any lead. They also contain loads of air.

I have got a bit fed up with the sniffy attitude of most cave divers towards what kit you should or should not use.
Im my mind this attitude runs contrary to the original pioneering spirit that developed the techniques and equipment in the first place. Not aimed at you specifically Joel but at the cave diving fraternity
 

Duncan Price

Active member
Johnny said:
Joel Corrigan said:
Other things I think I went off on were high-pressure bottles (very heavy, difficult to get decent fills, can often not be used by anyone else unless they've got deep-DIN threads, and troublesome for buoyancy if you need to take bottles off underwater etc),   

I have heard a lot of negative comments about high-pressure bottles, which is fine, they do have thier drawbacks. I personally think that they have thier place. Most cave divers do not have deep din threads because they insist on using bloody antiquated, out of date, impossible to get spares for, Cyclon 300 first stages. People say that they are heavy, they are but my 300bar 7's are great with my semi-dry as I do not need any lead. They also contain loads of air.

I have got a bit fed up with the sniffy attitude of most cave divers towards what kit you should or should not use.
Im my mind this attitude runs contrary to the original pioneering spirit that developed the techniques and equipment in the first place. Not aimed at you specifically Joel but at the cave diving fraternity

High pressure bottles have their place - if you can get them filled to 300 bar and you don't have to lug them a long way.  I agree that you have to cary sufficient weighting to sink and it might as well be doing something usefull like holding your air rather than a lump of lead.  Athough it is not recommended practice, a lot of people will over blow 232 bar tanks anyway...and due to the non-ideal gas laws 2/3rds on a 300 bar fill is actually 180 bar.  I've got 300 bar and 232 bar sets of 7s - the latter get used much more often but the HP tanks were the ones that I used at the end of Wookey...

Cyclon 300 first stages are rated to 300 bar and have deep enough DIN threads to accomodate this.  The older Cyclon first stages have funny LP and HP fittings and also only 200 bar DIN threads.

I don't think that cave divers are "sniffy" - but if you ask for an opinion then you'll get one.
 
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