Some good news on cave access

[Bottlebank]

Come on Graham ,one snow flake does not make a winter !

One caver insisting on his "right" to cave could easily lose us access to a dozen potential digs.

One upset farmer could easily chat to his neighbour and both, or more could decide to agree no more digging permission, or even withdraw existing permissions.

Why risk it, especially for so few benefits?

 

[Stu]

So the message seems to be some cavers are idiots and will antagonise landowners through their actions. That has more to do with some people being idiots than what access is or isn't allowed in future.

 

[cavermark]

On a local level it might be.

it only takes one idiot to annoy a farmer.....

There are many ways that landowners could be annoyed besides someone reasoning with them for access on CRow land.

I don't think this should prevent reasonable, calm discussion with landowners about access (especially with the argument that they have reduced liability).
Morevoer, if a precedent is set that cavers do have free access, and all surrounding landowners allow access and digging, this will go a long way to persuading the individual objectionable landowners. (in the same way that a farmer can spread negative words about cavers, they can also spread positives).

One or two farmers will remain steadfast in objecting - but maybe we have to let them be and go elsewhere for a year or two.

 

[jasonbirder]

I know of landowner who has recently refused permission for a dig, this person does own access to a cave and really is unhappy about people believing they have a right to be on his land.

But presumably this isn't in any way related to CRoW legislation...as its not been used to secure access to any Caves as yet has it...

Presumably this is a farmer unhappy about Unauthorised access to Caves on his land...fair point I can (just about) see the logic of that but if CRoW legislation were to apply to caving that would result in authorised access to Caves on his land...and Cavers would, presumably make up a very small proportion of people on his land...as cavers are a very small minority compared to Hikers, Dog Walkers etc...

 

[Badlad]

I haven't read the article as my Descent subscription ran out recently but I'm sure people are going to keep pushing for access under CRoW.

Could I suggest you read the article as it is very informative on this subject.

 

[bograt]

I suspect we are approaching the key point I have been trying to get across for decades; EDUCATION!, if cavers understood farmers more, and farmers understood cavers more, what a happier world it would be for all concerned.

I recall a time when a cave owning farmer broke an arm in the middle of haymaking and was very worried and stressed, one of the local caving clubs pulled together to help him get his harvest in, result- no problems with access for that club, and eventual ease of access for all, he was educated that cavers could be useful!

Another local cave owning farmer was stretched for help at lambing time, a few cavers offered and gave assistance, result- access (and quite a lot of help from the farmer) to a previously forbidden dig and some passage found, along with a lot of understanding of the local hydrology.

All it takes is everyone understanding each other and appreciating each others way of life, if one caving numpty antagonises a farmer, its up to the more sensible ones among us (you) to discourage them and teach the farmers that we (you) are not all bad.

I understand both sides, as a Peak District farmer (thankfully on Gritstone, so no caves) and a Peak District caver of loong experience, I did however gain my farming experience on a cave owning farm.

 

[georgenorth]

There seems to be a lot of talk about farmers here, which isn't particularly relevant to the situation in the Dales, where the majority of the caves with restricted access are owned by estates. I guess other caving areas of the country are fortunate that their caves lie on farm land, rather than grouse moor. I suspect it's rather harder for instance to form a relationship built on mutual understanding with, for instance, the lord lieutenant of lancashire, than it is with one of the farmers who live and work on the fells!

G.

 

[kay]

Or are we worrying over nothing...CRoW means landowners have had to accept unfettered access for walkers rambler birdspotters photographers climbers etc etc...has this instantly resulted in animosity between landowners and these groups...or is it a storm in a teacup...

CRoW hasn't resulted in much extra access for ramblers etc - research on the effects showed that most people stayed on the existing footpaths. But caves aren't necessarily near footpaths, so in some areas, could it be conceivable that CRoW access for cavers would actually have more effect than CRoW access for everyone else?

 

[graham]

There seems to be a lot of talk about farmers here, which isn't particularly relevant to the situation in the Dales, where the majority of the caves with restricted access are owned by estates. I guess other caving areas of the country are fortunate that their caves lie on farm land, rather than grouse moor. I suspect it's rather harder for instance to form a relationship built on mutual understanding with, for instance, the lord lieutenant of lancashire, than it is with one of the farmers who live and work on the fells!

G.

A point I made some days ago is that situations vary greatly from caving area to caving area, such that using national laws to define what happens in very different areas is not a good idea.

 

[georgenorth]

A point I made some days ago is that situations vary greatly from caving area to caving area, such that using national laws to define what happens in very different areas is not a good idea.

Personally I think that in the Dales, and certainly on the fells owned by the estates we probably have more to gain than lose through using the CRoW legislation (a last resort really). I can see why elsewhere in the country this might stack up differently.

 

[bograt]

There seems to be a lot of talk about farmers here, which isn't particularly relevant to the situation in the Dales, where the majority of the caves with restricted access are owned by estates. I guess other caving areas of the country are fortunate that their caves lie on farm land, rather than grouse moor. I suspect it's rather harder for instance to form a relationship built on mutual understanding with, for instance, the lord lieutenant of lancashire, than it is with one of the farmers who live and work on the fells!

G.

Thanks for that insight George, Has anyone approached the "Lord Lieutenant",or even  "our Charlie" for clarification??

 

[Simon Wilson]

There seems to be a lot of talk about farmers here, which isn't particularly relevant to the situation in the Dales, where the majority of the caves with restricted access are owned by estates. I guess other caving areas of the country are fortunate that their caves lie on farm land, rather than grouse moor. I suspect it's rather harder for instance to form a relationship built on mutual understanding with, for instance, the lord lieutenant of lancashire, than it is with one of the farmers who live and work on the fells!

G.

Thanks for that insight George, Has anyone approached the "Lord Lieutenant",or even  "our Charlie" for clarification??

In the North that would be the job of the CNCC Access Officer and unless the incumbent officer stands down that isn't going to happen.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Or are we worrying over nothing...CRoW means landowners have had to accept unfettered access for walkers rambler birdspotters photographers climbers etc etc...has this instantly resulted in animosity between landowners and these groups...or is it a storm in a teacup...

CRoW hasn't resulted in much extra access for ramblers etc - research on the effects showed that most people stayed on the existing footpaths. But caves aren't necessarily near footpaths, so in some areas, could it be conceivable that CRoW access for cavers would actually have more effect than CRoW access for everyone else?

Which research is that?

We have already had CRoW access for cavers for the same length of time as access "for everyone else".

 

[blackholesun]

Seems to me that lots of people are using examples from around the country. Surely, most of the time, CROW discussions are about the Dales, as that is where most of the caves on CROW land are and most of the complaints about access are (in England).

Saying that there are farmers who own non CROW land above a cave and who would be annoyed if someone tried to assert that they had access rights to the cave is not really very relevant.

Also, there appears to be a big and unsaid divide between the possible effects for sport caving and digging that is confusing this topic as people aren't making it explicit.

One person says; CROW could bring lots of benefits (meaning to sport caving)
The other says; No, that is completely wrong, there will be no benefits (meaning to digging access)

 

[graham]

A point I made earlier is that although, yes, most discussions around caving and CRoW are about the North, the Law doesn't just apply up there & can affect others in other parts of the country in, possibly, unforeseen ways.

Thus using national law to tackle local problems may not be the best way forward.

 

[Bottlebank]

Seems to me that lots of people are using examples from around the country. Surely, most of the time, CROW discussions are about the Dales, as that is where most of the caves on CROW land are and most of the complaints about access are (in England).

Saying that there are farmers who own non CROW land above a cave and who would be annoyed if someone tried to assert that they had access rights to the cave is not really very relevant.

Also, there appears to be a big and unsaid divide between the possible effects for sport caving and digging that is confusing this topic as people aren't making it explicit.

One person says; CROW could bring lots of benefits (meaning to sport caving)
The other says; No, that is completely wrong, there will be no benefits (meaning to digging access)

Sorry, I thought I'd been pretty clear.

I appreciate there will be some benefits for sports access, although I can't see that there will be lots. I am very concerned that there will be problems with digging access as a result. We have pretty good access to most Dales caves and I'm sure we could get more permits for places like Leck and Casterton if CNCC pushed for them. Equally I'm not too concerned about the big landowners, it's the local farmers who are likely to take things personally.

I think there's a big difference between cavers annoying a farmer a bit by caving without permission on his land (a bit irritating, but if challenged they'll usually apologise and sort things out) and he or she being told "we have right to be here". It is only my opinion at the end of the day but the latter invites retaliation and the only real way farmers on CRoW land could retaliate is by refusing digging permission - and from experience they will do.

We've been refused digging permission before where farmers have been annoyed other people have been digging without asking, one caver demanding his rights will be like a red rag to a bull.

 

[TheBitterEnd]

Well said blackholesun, obviously good relations with landowners are vital and an ideal system would include all the concerns of every faction and one-man-band in the caving world. However the vast majority of cavers just want to go caving so tailoring an access system around a minority of diggers or a miniscule number of very exceptional cases is at best unhelpful and more likely than not contributes to the sort of acrimony that we have seen with respect to the CNCC.

Exceptional situations are by definition exceptions, the CRoW act allows for such exceptions, for example section 26 subsection 3a allows for exclusion or restriction of access for "the purpose of conserving flora, fauna or geological or physiographical features of the land in question".

In terms of national and local ?caving policy? we surely must use a guiding principal of what will bring most benefit to most cavers and then build from there.

 

[Bottlebank]

tailoring an access system around a minority of diggers

I think diggers are in the majority nowadays in the Dales, at least in terms of man hours spent caving in any given week say

 

[Stu]

Equally I'm not too concerned about the big landowners, it's the local farmers who are likely to take things personally.

We've been refused digging permission before where farmers have been annoyed other people have been digging without asking, one caver demanding his rights will be like a red rag to a bull.

1 - By definition CRoW land is for the most part uncultivated. Without bothering to look, I'll hazard a guess that it'll have very little impact on farmers (this is almost a repeat of what George North said). Any that are should be dealt with locally and with sympathy.

2 - Diggers going on to land and digging without permission has nothing to do with CRoW. Maybe it's the diggers causing the problems!! 

 

[TheBitterEnd]

Nah, last night at one location alone there were two parties of around 6, so 12 people doing around 3-4 hours caving - say 42 caver hours at one mid-week location in two caves.