stalactites for sale

[Peter Burgess]

Oh, and by the way, welcome back, Graham. You have been sorely missed here. 

 

[graham]

Graham

I think Mike meant to criminalise the sale of stal. That would remove the incentive some people might have for stealing it. I agree that criminalising the vandalism would solve little. Students are as capable of causing deliberate damage as much as anyone else.

Pete, he did say removal rather than sale, however the analogy with the ivory trade remains valid either way. As far as students are concerned, I would say that they are, as a whole, probably exactly as likely to cause deliberate damage as anyone else, so why single them out?

 

[graham]

Oh, and by the way, welcome back, Graham. You have been sorely missed here. 

Thanks, but somehow I doubt it.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I would say that they are, as a whole, probably exactly as likely to cause deliberate damage as anyone else, so why single them out?

Dunno, let's ask him.

Thanks, but somehow I doubt it.

You're too modest.

I expect Whitelackington's got a shed-load of questions for you. He keeps asking the rest of us, but we can't help him, unfortunately.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Pete, he did say removal rather than sale

Ah, yes, you're quite right. Now that would be a noble but futile piece of legislation. Remove the incentive to remove them and we might make progress. Isn't deliberately damaging another's property criminal damage anyway, same as theft? Selling stal you have stolen is selling stolen goods. Buying it is receiving stolen goods.

Perhaps there's too much legislation - and we don't rely on our existing laws enough.

 

[Ship-badger]

As I have said before in this thread, making the removal of stal illegal is a non-starter; because the quarrying industry, with it's powerful political lobby, would block any attempts at legislation.

I accept Mike's suggestion that £5 is quite attractive if you're broke, but if I wanted to know what I could get for a piece of stal I would look on Ebay first, Not a caving forum. I might though look on a caving forum for information on where I could obtain some stal to sell.

How much stal has been taken from gated caves? Anyone have a clue?

 

[graham]

I can also think of a significant number of karst scientists who would be a tad annoyed if the removal of stal were to be made illegal. Thing is, in most (not all) cases they are dealing with stuff which isn't particularly aesthetically pretty; but it is still stal & would be caught by such a ban.

 

[cap n chris]

I think you'll find the people responsible for damaging caves are not students. Scrote-ish toe-rag crim-types living in white trash ghettos out "for a laff", a toke/smoke and some bevvies "wiv their mates".

 

[Rhys]

I accept Mike's suggestion that £5 is quite attractive if you're broke...

It barely pays for the petrol to make the trip to the cave though.

Rhys

 

[cap n chris]

Either the car is stolen or the petrol is siphoned. The car is set on fire in a layby on the way home.

 

[Les W]

Either the car is stolen or the petrol is siphoned. The car is set on fire in a layby on the way home.

But not too far from home coz they don't want to walk very far.

 

[cap n chris]

Unfortunately Mike (Barnes) this forum is not making the problem worse, but is a very small part of the cause of the problem, which is the internet as a whole in my opinion.

Twenty years ago, if you wanted to visit a cave you had to be very proactive in order to do so. You had to buy a guidebook in order to find out where the caves were, or join a Club. You had to acquire a lamp from somewhere.

Today the locations of many of our finest (and not so fine) caves are recorded on hundreds, if not thousands of websites. There are photographs of some of the most beautiful formations, together with directions to their locations underground. The internet has made this information available to anyone with a computer

So now any twat who wants a bit of stal doesn't have to do much surfing to find out where he can get some. Then all he needs is a £5 headtorch off Ebay and he's away. Publicising the prices that the twat gets for the stal on this forum will certainly not encourage anyone to go and get some.

If we want to stop this then the only answer in the short term, in my opinion, is to gate every cave with any stal of note in it. But we all know what a lot of people will say to this suggestion don't we? As I have said before on another thread, we could campaign for some legislation giving calcite the same sort of protection as ivory, but in the time it would take to happen, the stal hunters could strip every cave of it's stal. The quarrying industry would never let it happen anyway.

No; it will have to be gates!

I've been thinking about this for a couple of days and I believe Ship-Badger has made a significant and very important point re the easy availability of previously guarded information, resulting in detrimental visits to not-so-obvious unlocked sites by inconsiderate non-cavers.

However, there is a risk that it is purely a case of perceived increased damage to site rather than actual extra trips; the nature of damage/graffiti is that it is cumulative and so even if the rate of damage/graffiti drops over the years, the end result always looks as though the problem is becoming more and more prevalent. The cave in question, LL, is magnificently decorated in places but in other parts it is easy to discern the polishing from the passing of thousands of cavers - the site is popular and popular sites take wear and tear. Swildon's Hole has been thoroughly smoothed, almost as much as Goatchurch Cavern in places; this is an unavoidable end result of caving - our underground footpaths do not recover and grow back.

However, if there is a detectable rise in harvesting of formations (for whatever end purpose) then I believe Ship-Badger's suggestion might need to be seriously considered as a preventative reactionary measure to the widespread availability of location info which in the past was beyond reach of all except the super-determined or "those in the know".

I don't believe there is a right to such information; people earn or command respect; something similar should be the case for caving access IMHO. If there's a free-for-all then caves have no protection whatsoever (as has clearly been the case in these recent incidents).

My 2p.

 

[graham]

Damn right Chris. I have held such views for years. Others complain that it's somewhat elitist and I reply "yes, it is".

 

[Peter Burgess]

Security through obscurity. I've come to idea that entrance locations should not be advertised, but that responsible cavers should be easily contactable, so that genuine and responsible new cavers can be given as much help as they need to get underground safely. If you want to know where a cave is, ask, and we can help. However, its a bit too late now for many caves, isn't it? We can't pick them up and hide them somewhere else where naughty people can't find them.

The problem is very deep seated. The problem is ultimately down to how a potential vandal is brought up, the kind of values that are instilled in him/her at a young age. "If only everyone was brought up like me!" is not a statement of personal vanity - "look how good I am!" - but a genuine reflection of the kind of values everone should be encouraged to have. I am by no means perfect, but when I recoil at the news of cave vandalism, I know that someone at some time did something right when they taught me what was and was not acceptable behaviour. This is only easy to do with children, and is an almighty task to change the values of older people, who are hard-wired into a warped form of 'morality'.

 

[Les W]

Now is probably the time to mantion the "secrecy policy" of US cavers. :spank:

(I'm not advocating it, I'm not even sure it works, but it seems this debate is heading in that direction)

 

[graham]

Been waiting for someone to mention that, Les. Thing is if it does work, it'll certainly work better in the deserts of New Mexico than in the densely populated caving areas of the UK.

 

[cap n chris]

It's Pandora's Box; the problem with secrecy is that it's not really feasible, as Graham rightly highlights. For example, who could possibly keep schtummn about the Upper Flood discovery, for example? - after all, if it's what you've spent half your life looking for you're hardly likely to keep a lid on your excitement, once the discovery is made; also failing to publish discoveries/surveys undermines a fundamental pillar of exploration.

No. Secrecy ain't the answer.

So that leaves the gate open on only one other workable option, if protecting caves is the goal. Namely, closing the gate.

I think the pros and cons have been covered.

I think it's time that those who are vehemently against gating should put the effort in to come up with a solution which satisfies them as well as providing protection on a par with sites which are gated. Perhaps there's something obvious which we've all missed and there is a "third way"....

Perhaps not.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Gating is unfortunately the only way that really works. This is our experience in Surrey, and elsewhere in the South East. Slowly but surely, over the years, the various sites worth preserving have been gated one by one, and usually at the insistence of landowners, who do not want the liability of having unprotected disused mines on their land. If a caving group is prepared to gate it, it sets their minds at rest, and gives them the reassurance that someone is keeping an eye on the site on their behalf, however informally.

The side effect of the gating is a marked slowing and even a stopping of the deterioration of whatever vulnerable features may exist in the site in question.

The few sites that remain ungated continue to be visited by idiots intent on making a mess and spoiling whatever they feel like.

However well intentioned an open access policy may seem, ultimately its the sites that suffer, and future cavers wont thank us for being so liberal.

 

[Dep]

...
It is illegal to damage a Schedule Monument, but it doesn't stop teenage morons breaking into such places and wreaking havoc. This is a highly topical matter in my area at the moment, so I do know what little regard some idiots have for the law.
...
OK, perhaps I was a bit harsh, but we are having serious problems at the moment with kids who are'nt intent on making money, they are just out to cause trouble.

I would correct you there slightly Peter; the kids are not out to cause trouble per se; that implies a malicious desire to be 'bad'.

By their own lights they are doing little harm (apart from the broken lock which only one person was responsible for) and merely having a good time.
They are not trouble-makers as such - just ignorant little f**ks who need to be re-educated or gassed!

In a later post you make the point about bringing up your kids correctly to understand what is or isn't OK.
You correctly point out that it is relatively easy to train children in this way - I totally agree.
But the reverse is also true: If you don't train them and they grow into adults then there is nothing you can do, the damage is done.
The problem in the UK now is that the problem has persisted long enough for the ignorant majority to be reproducing - the youths we met the other night are second or even third generation ignorant f**ks.

Perhaps fill the site with carbon monoxide laden fumes and leave it unlocked for the night?

 

[cap n chris]

Dep, are you going to vote Liberal again at the next election?