stalactites for sale

[Peter Burgess]

the youths we met the other night are second or even third generation ignorant f**ks.

I am sure there are lots of nice intelligent people who live in W**dh***h. We just haven't met them yet.

 

[axbridgecaver]

I believe this statement on the E-bay web site is new and may be a way of forcing sellers not to sell formations on e-bay. As a matter of fact I have not seen any formations sold on e-bay for the past two weeks.

"Cave Formations - The removal of speleothems, stalactites and stalagmites from caves which have been designated Sites of Special Scientific Interest ("SSSIs") is prohibited unless prior consent has been obtained from English Nature. Subsequently the sale of speleothems, stalactites and stalagmites taken from caves designated as SSSIs is also prohibited.

An item lawfully removed from private land is permitted"

http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/community/png-artifacts.html

This link is to the relevant e-bay page and at the bottom there is a link where "Community members can report prohibited, questionable and infringing items to eBay".

Recently there have been several cave bear fossils from Westbury-sub Mendip, Somerset.UK for sale - I wonder if the seller is allowed to sell these? Does anyone know which cave these may have come from as it is most probably a SSSSI?

 

[cap n chris]

Well spotted, Axbridgecaver! - perhaps our efforts haven't been in vain after all.

 

[axbridgecaver]

The only problem that I can see with this is that the stal and fossil sellers will now label their items as found China or other remote places where the e-bay prohibited items rule does not apply

 

[cap n chris]

Any legitimately-acquired stal will, by definition, have associated proof of legitimacy - be it imported from China or elsewhere - in the form of import documentation/notes/invoice etc..

Therefore anyone selling stal who cannot provide any provenance or corroborative documentation is, by default, selling illegitimately acquired items. QED. Therefore it should be relatively straightforward to determine whether a vendor is legit or not by simply asking what supporting documentation they have which establishes the bona fides of the goods for sale. Items which have "come from my long dead Uncle's collection" will have to be given the benefit of the doubt but a vendor who is clearly trading multiple items over and over and over via EBay is now effectively debarred from selling stal unless they can come up with proof of their acquisitions being legal.

So, I still think it's a thumbs-up job, Axbridgecaver. All we need to do now is keep an eye out for people falling foul of EBay's new requirements.

 

[axbridgecaver]

There are more formations for sale on e-bay this time mounted on what looks like a marble base -

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=011&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=320058565620&rd=1&rd=1#ebayphotohosting

!!! UNIQUE ITEM SCULPTED BY NATURE !!! Height: 20.5 inches

I believe that this sale could have a very adverse effect on the protection of cave formations since this company the Sculptured Arts Studio sells high quality Bronze and Marble pieces of for in- and outside decoration - and all their items are put up for sale for a good price; which (in my opinion) this item has already reached.

 

[cap n chris]

Have written to vendor: response (if any) will be posted here in due course.

 

[Peter Burgess]

So what happened to the new Ebay guidelines?

 

[cap n chris]

The Ebay guidelines prohibit the sale of speleothems derived from SSSI caves (i.e. caves which fall under the legislation controlled by English Nature/Natural England) - any caves beyond the SSSI legislation are fair game. However, I did ask whether the vendor has the provenance of the item.

 

[axbridgecaver]

So what happened to the new Ebay guidelines?

The vendor used the familiar get out clause -

"Very rare stalactite for sale, which is part of an old inherited collection.
In total natural condition and colors."

 

[whitelackington]

They should be publicly horsewhipped

 

[graham]

So what happened to the new Ebay guidelines?

The vendor used the familiar get out clause -

"Very rare stalactite for sale, which is part of an old inherited collection.
In total natural condition and colors."

This is precisely the get out used by art thieves and antiquities smugglers the world over.  :read:

 

[cucc Paul]

http://cgi.ebay.com/HUGE-13-Stalagmite-Stalactite-Cathedral-23LB-Calcite_W0QQitemZ260062511727QQihZ016QQcategoryZ3225QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

and another  :spank: if its so priceless leave it in the hole you found it where it will continue to grow

 

[cap n chris]

:read: Tis in Americ-i-ay so not our manor, squire. NSS bods should stamp on that one.  :read:

 

[Hatstand]

The bit I don't understand is that they all look rather crap sat on someone's shelf/coffee table. Out of context they just look silly.  :blink:

 

[cap n chris]

Similar to pebbles/shells looking great on the beach but dull and crap on the window sill.

 

[whitelackington]

Or stuffed bears or elephants feet

 

[mak]

yeah - stuffed bears should only be seen in the wild :tease:

But seriously - we should encourage e-bay and others to place a total ban on their sale, otherwise you will always get people willing to forge documents, or just lie and claim stuff came from an inherited collection, whilst plundering what is a finite resource (in the timescales we live in anyway).

 

[cucc Paul]

write a petition....  :alien:

 

[cap n chris]

Have written to vendor: response (if any) will be posted here in due course.

My enquiry:-

"As a cave conservation officer I should like to urge you to reconsider offering this item for sale; trading cave formations creates acceptability in the minds of unscrupulous people who subsequently see harvesting such items as a method of earning easy money to the lasting detriment of fragile cave environments. If you no longer wish to own your cave formations please donate them to your local museum or academic institution.

Where are your formations from and can you certify their provenance? - see
http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/artifacts.html "

Response received (with which I am satisfied, BTW):

"Dear sir,

this rock formation is part of an old collection of rocks left to me by a relative, who was passionate about rocks and collected them on his world travels whilst in the merchant navy this one was marked as burma 1948. I have never seen items like this available anywhere niether has anyone i have asked, if it was an obvious problem and the internet and ebay where full of them then i would agree with you, as it is evedently not, i do not see the harm of this item, especially as it is old and not from private or protected modern day sites. But a chance for some to own such an old, facinating rock, i have no local museums or institutes.

I respect and now understand your concerns and thankyou for making me aware of your concerns.

Yours sincerly.-"