staying upright whilst descending?

[owd git]

It's always been less than optimal but has got worse since gravity went metric 

Only just read through (properly)

 

[paul]

I thought the topic was re- decending.? :doubt:
O. G.

Surely if you have a body shape which causes problems while descending, it may not be totally unrelated that you may also have problems with prusiking as well, so not totally off-topic.

 

[owd git]

I take your point Paul, however climbing,  balance is slightly less of an issue as one hand is usually on jammer  helping upper body to stay 'upper', dont you think?
O.G.

 

[paul]

I take your point Paul, however climbing,  balance is slightly less of an issue as one hand is usually on jammer  helping upper body to stay 'upper', dont you think?
O.G.

It's still an issue though. I remember one caver who was short and very top heavy having real problems when trying to prusik when I was trying to give hime some SRT instruction above ground.

He found it impossible in a normal Frog setup to prusik at anything approaching an efficient position and was soon getting knackered as he had to use his arms much more than you would in a more efficient postion.

It wasn't just me having problems sorting out his problems, even a "professional" caving instructor explained to him that given his body size and shape, he was always going to have a struggle and losing lot of weight would be a good starting point.

 

[TheBitterEnd]

JessopSmythe - I was just using a standard maillon and you are probably right that this contributed to the problem.

Fulk - 16" seems like a pretty big step to me (I tried a measured step). I could have taken bigger steps if I had bothered to adjust my foot loop but obviously my hands would be higher.  Also do you really think you loose 3" per step? With my normal set up (especially when using a Pantin) my impression is that I loose next to nothing.

It still seems to be an interesting trade off, yes it's less efficient but I can go faster and longer. So the question is, does the loss of efficiency out weigh the gains from being less knackered?

 

[Fulk]

It still seems to be an interesting trade off, yes it's less efficient but I can go faster and longer. So the question is, does the loss of efficiency out weigh the gains from being less knackered

I guess it's all down to personal preference; what's right for one ain't necessarily right for all. But be open-minded and prepared to accept change, rather than stick rigidly to what an 'expert' showed you.

 

[Amy]

I take your point Paul, however climbing,  balance is slightly less of an issue as one hand is usually on jammer  helping upper body to stay 'upper', dont you think?
O.G.

It's still an issue though. I remember one caver who was short and very top heavy having real problems when trying to prusik when I was trying to give hime some SRT instruction above ground.

He found it impossible in a normal Frog setup to prusik at anything approaching an efficient position and was soon getting knackered as he had to use his arms much more than you would in a more efficient postion.

It wasn't just me having problems sorting out his problems, even a "professional" caving instructor explained to him that given his body size and shape, he was always going to have a struggle and losing lot of weight would be a good starting point.

I would have punched the "professional". There are PLENTY of systems and options out there for those of us who are shorter and large-chested that frogging NATURALLY wont work well for. I can frog about 100-150ft. After that I'm totally, as ya'all say, "knackered". Its nice for in-cave stuff and short pitches and multidrops type stuff but I love my single bungie ropewalker. If it weren't for moving the QAS up with my hands i could walk up the rope hands-free, just like I'm walking up stairs. Easy as that. Passing lips, changing over to pigtails, passing knots, etc isn't any harder than on a frog, just a little different technique and like with anything what you train & practice is what you get used to and excel at.

 

[Les W]

Problem is Amy, we only use Frog or a derivative here. Most of our caves have short(ish) pitches and are generally rigged Alpine style (rebelays everywhere) rather than the US style of just chuck the rope over the lip. We don't do "passing lipps" as the rope is never hanging over a lip. It is an anatheme here to allow the rope to ever touch the rock.

Frog is ideal for multi pitch rebelays Alpine style but Rope walking is a PIA to use except on big freehangs.

Yet another difference between our two countries...
(Obviously our way is the best...  :tease: )

 

[cap n chris]

given his body size and shape, he was always going to have a struggle and losing lot of weight would be a good starting point.

Appears to be a statement of fact, rather than opinion.

Pretty spot-on advice and would definitely confer an advantage as a result.

 

[paul]

I take your point Paul, however climbing,  balance is slightly less of an issue as one hand is usually on jammer  helping upper body to stay 'upper', dont you think?
O.G.

It's still an issue though. I remember one caver who was short and very top heavy having real problems when trying to prusik when I was trying to give hime some SRT instruction above ground.

He found it impossible in a normal Frog setup to prusik at anything approaching an efficient position and was soon getting knackered as he had to use his arms much more than you would in a more efficient postion.

It wasn't just me having problems sorting out his problems, even a "professional" caving instructor explained to him that given his body size and shape, he was always going to have a struggle and losing lot of weight would be a good starting point.

I would have punched the "professional". There are PLENTY of systems and options out there for those of us who are shorter and large-chested that frogging NATURALLY wont work well for. I can frog about 100-150ft. After that I'm totally, as ya'all say, "knackered". Its nice for in-cave stuff and short pitches and multidrops type stuff but I love my single bungie ropewalker. If it weren't for moving the QAS up with my hands i could walk up the rope hands-free, just like I'm walking up stairs. Easy as that. Passing lips, changing over to pigtails, passing knots, etc isn't any harder than on a frog, just a little different technique and like with anything what you train & practice is what you get used to and excel at.

Maybe, but it's passing rebelays that's the problem with most ropewalking (not a Frog setup with the addition of a Pantin but the Mitchell or Texas setp for example). And we have plenty of rebelays in Europe unlike many areas in the US so the Frog setup is the preferred one.

 

[Alex]

Problem is Amy, we only use Frog or a derivative here. Most of our caves have short(ish) pitches and are generally rigged Alpine style (rebelays everywhere) rather than the US style of just chuck the rope over the lip. We don't do "passing lipps" as the rope is never hanging over a lip. It is an anatheme here to allow the rope to ever touch the rock.

Not entirely true, we do pass lips sometimes here sometimes but if that is the case such as Rowton (window) and cow pot for example there is normally a rebelay immidiately after. Oh cant forget Croaser, now that is a lip pass no re-belay either (second pitch).

 

[Amy]

I understand that there rigging is different, but I still say it's what you are used to and practice...perhaps the difference for me is I'm on a single bungee ropewalker (this is not a mitchell or texas...) so *i personally* do no find it harder than a frog for various rope manovours, in fact, I *personally* find it easier. Even there are frog-to-mitchell which surely would work better for rebelays if you want to stay basically frog? Everyone is different, being open and able to play with various systems, even creating your own mosh of one, can be important and the difference between comfortable and horribly uncomfortable on rope.

And yet, I still prefer frog with short multi-drops, and tight entrance pits that can make a chest roller hard to deal with. Nice thing about my single bungie ropewalker is it converts right back for those caves.

Having options FTW!

 

[Les W]

Alex, there are always exceptions but the generalisation hold true.

Would you bother with a rope walk system to climb the second pitch at Croesor? Most people only go down anyway...

 

[Graham17]

An old thread but interesting as this problem has affected me couple of times... reasons for low attachment point (faster pursuing, better side reach..) seem to be outweighed by 1) risk of going upside down on a slip or fall... 2) need for chest  clip harness to prevent such... 3) need to use maybe tired hands to maintain upright position... Compared to say a std construction harness fall must be safely arrested in upright position . So it seems to me that a good test is to hang off the harness hands free if you aren't upright the centre of gravity /attachment point is too low...??