Students tell the BCA how to attract new, more diverse adherents to our sport

[cap n chris]

Alastair's post(s) resonate many previous observations regarding the caving demographic which have been voiced over and over for years. Namely there will be insufficient new blood to sustain the organs of UK caving such as clubs, regional councils and the national bodies. Some may survive, but all will not.

However.

Caving will continue. The internet and easy access to specialised knowledge will see to it.

 

[mikem]

We have Ilkley, Brimham rocks and Almscliff.

Some classic crags there, relatively close to major population centres, but being gritstone, quite hard to protect when leading & known for strenuous routes. Accidents in climbing are likely to increase with indoor wall trained climbers not having lines of bolts to follow when they move outdoors (especially as walls are generally more akin to limestone, which is a totally different style).

Generations of cavers & climbers used to learn their skills outside of clubs, mostly with someone who had a bit more of an idea than they did - but there were more rescues of cavers then.

Mike

 

[moletta]

Mountain Penguin -glad you get to do lots of activities at will. Why would it be so bad to do some trips with a club, gain some experience and, if you enjoy it, start doing some of the easier caves with friends? There are people out there caving outside the club system.

Just remember that rescue for the lost or injured is not an ambulance or helicopter, but is physical effort by experienced cavers over  many hours.
Also are the books the ones with the surveys in which give you a clue about where you are going?

 

[mountainpenguin]

Mountain Penguin -glad you get to do lots of activities at will. Why would it be so bad to do some trips with a club, gain some experience and, if you enjoy it, start doing some of the easier caves with friends? There are people out there caving outside the club system.

Just remember that rescue for the lost or injured is not an ambulance or helicopter, but is physical effort by experienced cavers over  many hours.
Also are the books the ones with the surveys in which give you a clue about where you are going?

thanks for the suggestion
I voulanteer as part of CRO already so well aware of whats needed for rescues thanks

 

[Pitlamp]

well this is a bit of trying to address the symptom rather than the problem.
There is a missing generation to caving.
I am only one of my friends who would have taken to the sport if it were not for the backwards feel.
you *have* to join a club you *have* to have insurance. You have to find a big book and follow byzantine rules to get to go to a lot of places.
We grew up with CROW access to crags. Want to take a friend climbing, just do it.
We grew up with trail centers. Want to take a friend mountain biking then goto a good trail center and they will be able to hire a bike.
We grew up being able to go for a wander on the mountains easily.
We grew up being able to go for a paddle in a canoe with friends.
Non of this has been possible in caving and we feel like we have been pushed out. We would be the ones volunteering for the social media.
I know so many who would have and have volunteered but have left due to the hard / impossible work of dealing with the "our way or the high way" old guard who control access and control clubs.

Thanks for your thoughts Mountainpenguin, which I've mulled over carefully since yesterday. I think there's some useful stuff in there.

But - I couldn't help wondering whether you were really motivated to have a go at caving. If you'd have persevered even just a bit, I think you'd have found that things are different from the perception you gained. (That's not a criticism of you in any way.) I should add that my caving is done mainly in the Dales and Peak District; I can't speak for other areas (although I've been made very welcome on my own visits).

I take it you must still have at least some interest in caving, otherwise you'd not have taken the time to share your thoughts above. In which case - go on, give it a go. You might be pleasantly surprised.

In many cases, if you want to go caving, you and your mates can just go. You don't need to join a club. If you don't though, you'd miss out on so many other rewarding aspects of the caving scene, which you'd otherwise never have known about. Joining a club also normally gives you access to a bunch of folk who are probably going to do their best to avoid you coming a cropper. There are also any number of good instructors who you can hire to teach you skills - but I'd still suggest getting involved with a decent club anyway for the longer term, as you'll get more from it.

Anyway, this led me on to pondering to what extent we should pro-actively encourage folk to have a go. Or whether we should focus instead on making it as attractive as possible to anyone who shows interest voluntarily. I don't have an answer but I think these are factors perhaps worth considering.

Since typing this I just noticed your most recent post explaining that you're involved with CRO. Yet your words above suggest that you "would have" had a go had you not evidently been put off by your perceptions. Now I'm confused. 

 

[andrewmcleod]

Since typing this I just noticed your most recent post explaining that you're involved with CRO. Yet your words above suggest that you "would have" had a go had you not evidently been put off by your perceptions. Now I'm confused. 

CRO does the above-ground stuff as well... not everyone in CRO is a caver (most of the rescues are above-ground, after all...).

Caving really is the odd one out in many ways.

 

[Pitlamp]

Of course - thanks  - it makes better sense now.

 

[nearlywhite]

I mean getting on my hobby horse, I was quite annoyed at the lack of a mention for BCA Youth and Development - which in terms of concrete results has made a real impact in British caving. Far more than any other initiative thus far.

I agree with Capn Chris (miracles do happen  ) and it's my main motivator.

I disagree with your article though David, because I think the BCA is in a really good place on this issue, publications and information are about to update its image but the civil service of caving, BCA's volunteers, that run some of the organs of caving are better supported than ever and there is a vision for the future - we're not all over 50.

 

[David Rose]

Nearlywhite, I totally accept that the BCA is moving in the right direction here. At the same time, I do think the students' presentations make clear we need to take this seriously, and that there is no room for complacency.

Let me just throw one point back into the mix: diversity. Let's face it: the overwhelming majority of cavers are white, and most of them (not all - most) are male.

Are we worried about this? Should we be? And if we are, should we be trying to change things?

 

[nearlywhite]

Oh the irony... Why's my name nearlywhite?

It's something CHECC and Y&D have looked at before - as have the BMC. I think the best we can do within caving is to support clubs that promote it, something that CHECC member clubs do very well.

The gender ratios in student caving seem to have improved massively over my decade in student caving, it'll take a while to filter up.

I'm not advocating complacency, I just don't think you have a good grasp of what certain sections of the BCA are doing - mainly because we don't publicise it as most of us would rather get on with it in the background. I feel the need to emphasize that we're in a positive place so more people feel like getting involved wouldn't be an uphill battle.

 

[mikem]

But youth & development doesn't even have a page on the BCA website...

 

[Cookie]

That had been spotted by themselves.

I believe they are putting some info together.

 

[flashheart]

Perhaps the answer is to have 'clubs' where young people cave together, under the watchful eye of experienced and qualified leaders, and are encouraged to develop to the point where they can lead themselves or join an established club.  I think that the idea of caving with adults who are initially strangers is daunting to children and teenagers, who really just want to be around people of their own age and have fun.
This obviously present lots of logistical challenges to whoever organises such a club (funding, safeguarding, gear, transport etc) - one solution may be to work with local outdoor centres who have much of this framework already in place. Imagine if a young person who was introduced to caving on a residential could get dropped off with their mates at their local centre on a Saturday morning for a day of caving, for a small cost, in the same way that they might for football, swimming etc.
I'm aware that this sort of scheme may already exist within some clubs, and that organisations like the Scouts do a lot for youth caving. But lots of urban areas are withing striking distance of limestone, and what I'm describing (informal, fun regular caving for youngsters) doesn't seem to be 'a thing' yet.

 

[nobrotson]

Perhaps the answer is to have 'clubs' where young people cave together, under the watchful eye of experienced and qualified leaders, and are encouraged to develop to the point where they can lead themselves or join an established club. 

why not just join a student caving club, where you get experienced leaders, who are young, within an established club structure. If that's not your scene, I think Rostam has a good scheme lined up that he can describe much better than me...

 

[flashheart]

Perhaps the answer is to have 'clubs' where young people cave together, under the watchful eye of experienced and qualified leaders, and are encouraged to develop to the point where they can lead themselves or join an established club. 

why not just join a student caving club, where you get experienced leaders, who are young, within an established club structure. If that's not your scene, I think Rostam has a good scheme lined up that he can describe much better than me...

I can see lots of positives in this idea, if the student clubs concerned bought into the idea and could prove competence to the parents of their younger charges. There are other pressures on their time, however, and a stable arrangement would encourage young cavers to stay and develop as cavers.

 

[mikem]

Uni clubs had enough problems with insurance for experienced non-students forcing many to stop supporting them (which coincided with the start of decline in number of clubs), I don't think the student unions will allow younger non-students (for a variety of other reasons too).

& most outdoor centres can't afford to run sessions at the sort of prices that scouts offer - so you're still left with a lack of opportunities...

Mike

 

[flashheart]

& most outdoor centres can't afford to run sessions at the sort of prices that scouts offer - so you're still left with a lack of opportunities...

Mike

I agree Mike. Such a scheme would rely on volunteers and would have to be subsidised from elsewhere, rather than as part of the outdoor centre's business model. It would rely on the co-operation of the centre, as they would essentially supply gear, facilities and transport (during times when they were not required for 'paying customers'). Could the BCA help with insurance, subsidies, a support framework etc? I don't know. It just seems to me that the pieces are all there.

 

[JasonC]

Uni clubs had enough problems with insurance for experienced non-students forcing many to stop supporting them (which coincided with the start of decline in number of clubs), I don't think the student unions will allow younger non-students (for a variety of other reasons too).

This is true, but some Universities (especially Russell group ones) are under pressure to recruit from a wider range of schools and already run outreach programmes.  So a link-up with local sixth-forms could be spun as an effort of this kind and get the authorities actively supporting it, rather than trying to block it.

(I know, and pigs might fly too...)

 

[andrewmcleod]

It's probably one of those tragic ironies that, unlike most sports, you _have_ to join a caving club to cave. I know that's not actually true, yet every person who comes onto this forum gets told to join a club...

And yet in most sports where do young people start? Clubs, whether it be the local football club or whatever. And what do caving clubs do for young people? Very little... With a few exceptions, of course, but most caving clubs in the country don't want anything to do with young people.

If caving really wants more kids involved, then it needs people willing to a) jump through the child protection hoops (which is a lot easier if you have NGB support) and b) willing to take kids caving on a regular basis. Such people do exist, and are already taking people caving, and should be applauded, but I don't see queues forming to lead kids' trips... Not that I'm any better of course (although a very brief failed career in teaching suggests I'm not the person to make kids behave!).

Student clubs are absolutely the wrong answer to getting U18s caving (I actually wrote drinking instead of caving initially - Freudian slip!) for a variety of reasons.

(and since there is another reply, here are some of those reasons...)

Uni clubs often have enough trouble getting leaders to run their own trips, let alone others.
Taking kids caving requires adopting a very serious duty of care, leading trips appropriately and having sufficient experience and management skills to never end up in trouble. Essentially the same sort of management as commercial caving.
Student caving is all about personal growth and trying new things; 'normal' caving where you try things that are sometimes outside your comfort zone and previous skills. Its a group of peer or near-peers exploring the world of caving, not a leader and those the leader is caring for.
Student clubs are a place for people who have just become adults to express themselves - they've only just broken free of being U18, and now they have to start looking after them?
Also the drinking.

 

[Chocolate fireguard]

Let me just throw one point back into the mix: diversity. Let's face it: the overwhelming majority of cavers are white, and most of them (not all - most) are male.

Are we worried about this? Should we be? And if we are, should we be trying to change things?

Caving is an activity which at first sight has little to recommend it.
Not many people take it up, obviously fewer do it more than once and even fewer carry on year after year.  There will be many reasons for this.
Is it sensible to assume that people of different ethnicity, gender, upbringing and so on all attach the same importance to all these reasons?
In an ideal world everyone would have the same opportunities to become (or not) a caver.
But just playing the numbers game (and I?m afraid that?s what often follows a mention of ?diversity?) ignores the valid reasons for people of different backgrounds wanting to do different things and does not prove that the opportunities are not there.