Students tell the BCA how to attract new, more diverse adherents to our sport

[ian.p]

I think there's an important point to be made that I think gets forgotten in the social media age, especially by the older demographic. It's all too easy to just accept the narrative that getting photos on social media is all that matters to young people it's just not the case.

At the end of the day social media is not really all that important.

Try not to gasp too loudly! I have been involved with student and children's caving groups for over a decade. Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat - they might turn someones head and spark an interest and done well can help to signpost people to resources that will help to introduce them to the sport, but at the end of the day it's the people they meet and the communities they form that makes the difference. What is more, even if getting that photo on Instagram is the most important thing for 90% of the population that's not the 90% we are interested in and its not the fraction of a percent we need to create a long term caving community.

I think it's important to remember that throughout cavings history it has always attracted outsiders - those that don't fit in anywhere else and aren't really that "cool". These are the people for whom caving will become the most important part of their life, these will be the life long devotees and these are the children who will use that lifeline to survive their adolescence if they are thrown it.

We need to have a much broader discussion then just how to use social media if we really want to improve our sport for young people.

Things that really make a difference to youth caving:

-Scout leaders taking young people caving.

-Groups of like minded adults who think its important young people can access sports like caving setting up clubs (EECC /FSC) or groups within clubs (like the UWFRA outdoor club) that are geared towards taking young people caving.

-National and regional bodies taking clear and proactive stances in support of developing caving for children. The ongoing debacle with the Charterhouse caving company is a national disgrace.

Things that make a difference to student caving:

-If you are involved in a student caving club and you want it to grow think first about how you build your community. Create spaces for those people who want to be involved in your club but aren't stoked about getting boozed all the time. In ULSA we started having soup kitchens before training evenings. Some cavers raid the local supermarket bins a day or two before, it all gets cooked up, everyone piles round someones kitchen / front room has a good feed, natter and a catch up and it helps create a space where quieter folk and those that dont drink can come out of their shells at their own pace. I remember when I was a student SUSS had Sunday roasts and I think SUSS currently has regular film nights. If you have a community the caving will follow.

- Do not be elitist, only discriminate based on enthusiasm!

- If you've just graduated, stick around, don't move home and definitely don't get a proper job! They need you - just try and remember that the next years worth of students will have to reinvent the wheel. They will probably just resent it if you insist on telling them its round and goes on the end of an axle. You will fail at this because its to frustrating not to try but they do just need to f?ck things up themselves the same way you did a year or two ago... stick around anyway you're probably the only one with a car.

Now if only i could get this post down to 280 characters then it would make a real impact....

 

[PeteHall]

even if getting that photo on Instagram is the most important thing for 90% of the population that's not the 90% we are interested in and its not the fraction of a percent we need to create a long term caving community.

I think it's important to remember that throughout cavings history it has always attracted outsiders - those that don't fit in anywhere else and aren't really that "cool". These are the people for whom caving will become the most important part of their life, these will be the life long devotees and these are the children who will use that lifeline to survive their adolescence if they are thrown it.

We need to have a much broader discussion then just how to use social media if we really want to improve our sport for young people.

This is precisely what I was trying to say in my earlier post. Thank you for articulating it so much better!

 

[kay]

why not just join a student caving club

Because more than 50% of the population do not go to university (and many of those who do go to "former polytechnics" who don't tend to have caving clubs).

If you're serious about increasing the attraction to young people, increasing diversity etc, you need to look beyond the conventional "university caving club" answer.

 

[nobrotson]

you don't have to be a student to join ULSA. We've had quite a few non-students join over the years, quite a few of whom have stuck with caving (and even gone on to join other non-student clubs). As for the more vocational universities, we try to recruit from Leeds Beckett and Leeds College of Art each year as well. Beckett have limited amounts of space at the freshers fair so its always a bit tricky but definitely worth trying to do. SUSS is another example of a student club which recruits from multiple universities and also has had success recruiting non-students.

Whilst student caving clubs might not always be the best way to attract young people to caving, right now they are probably the single best vehicle for introducing new people to the sport. Yes, there should be other things available. But realistically right now there aren't. What do you suggest as an alternative pathway for young adults to become involved in caving? I don't see many of the conventional clubs successfully attracting any young cavers. Unless those young cavers were formally members of a university club...

 

[Goydenman]

you don't have to be a student to join ULSA. We've had quite a few non-students join over the years, quite a few of whom have stuck with caving (and even gone on to join other non-student clubs). As for the more vocational universities, we try to recruit from Leeds Beckett and Leeds College of Art each year as well. Beckett have limited amounts of space at the freshers fair so its always a bit tricky but definitely worth trying to do. SUSS is another example of a student club which recruits from multiple universities and also has had success recruiting non-students.

Whilst student caving clubs might not always be the best way to attract young people to caving, right now they are probably the single best vehicle for introducing new people to the sport. Yes, there should be other things available....

Didn?t know ULSA and SUSS recruit non-students that?s good to know about...well done

 

[andrewmcleod]

Unless those young cavers were formally members of a university club...

Ignoring the fact that many university clubs have strict limits on non-students of their particularly University (yes I know there are exceptions, but for example Exeter aren't even allowed to have alumni members officially), what would make a student club any better than a 'conventional' caving club at taking U18s caving (or are you not talking about U18s)?

I used to be in a fencing club and did get an (extremely basic) coaching qualification. It was, I believe, a rule of the national governing body that you _must_ be CRB (now DBS) checked to operate as a fencing coach in any fencing club in the country affiliated to the NGB (which would be virtually all of them). This wasn't, in practice, a problem since the NGB did a lot of the work in helping clubs get the relevant boxes ticked off for child protection (it might even have been a requirement) and applying for a CRB check was easy and free (as a volunteer) through the NGB. Again, this all made sense since virtually every fencing club in the country has kids there who get dropped off by their parents and picked up two hours later (or whatever). I had to get CRB checked once to help volunteer at the UK School Games (I was doing computing things).

I assume most other sports operate in a similar fashion, probably including kids climbing clubs. Caving is, of course, not a sport...

Are there _any_ clubs in the country that have ticked all the relevant boxes to take U18s caving without parental or loco parentis supervision? There must be some, surely...

Of course, the _real_ problem with doing this is getting the volunteers with the sufficient experience or competence (LCMLA level 1 would be a good box to have ticked) who actually want to take kids caving every Tuesday evening for 2/3 hours...

 

[ian.p]

Ignoring the fact that many university clubs have strict limits on non-students of their particularly University (yes I know there are exceptions, but for example Exeter aren't even allowed to have alumni members officially), what would make a student club any better than a 'conventional' caving club at taking U18s caving (or are you not talking about U18s)?

There are ways around this sort of problem. At Leeds we actually have two clubs Leeds University Union Caving society (LUUCaS) and the University of Leeds Speleological Association. LUUCaS functions as the student wing of ULSA is part of the students union and receives the associated grants etc. ULSA has nothing to do with the uni apart from its name so we can have whoever we like in the club and the constitution states that members of LUUCaS are automatically members of ULSA. Rules are there to be got around, anyone with enough imagination and the will can find ways to include whatever demographics they want in there club worst case scenario don't make them join just go caving with them anyway!

Of course, the _real_ problem with doing this is getting the volunteers with the sufficient experience or competence (LCMLA level 1 would be a good box to have ticked) who actually want to take kids caving every Tuesday evening for 2/3 hours...

Yes this is the hard bit but its not as onerous as you think. Take LCMLA competency in FSC we have a number of people who do have LCMLA level 1 training and/or certification which mostly ticks a box for our insurance and helps us to ensure that our curent practice is inline with current good practice. The majority of our staff volunteers who assist with the running of caving camps do not have formal qualification but we have an internal processes that makes sure suitably experienced leaders take suitably capable children to appropriate caves, it works extremely well. There is no legal requirement for volunteers (or professional's for that matter) to be qualified in order to take children caving. What matters is that you can show you have taken sensible steps to ensure the safety of the children in your care and actually exactly the same duties of care apply to you if you are undertaking to take novice adults underground as a more experienced caver you are expected to take reasonable steps to ensure the safety of those involved.

BCA public liability insurance covers adults taking children caving, Education in the Environment Caving Club (EECC) has used it for years. organisations like the scouts and FSC that undertake other activities and have large non caving memberships cant use it because of the requirement that all members of a club take out cover but for caving specific childrens clubs its an excellent potential resource.

Having a child protection policy in place if you are going to provide an activity for children is important but it doesn't actually have to require DBS checks especially not if you aren't providing a residential stay. Again you just need to have sensibly thought out common sense processes that to ensure the safety of the children in your care DBS can form part of this (and volunteer DBS checks are still free) but they aren't the only and shouldn't be the only solution to creating a safe environment for children. 

 

[PeteHall]

Of course, the _real_ problem with doing this is getting the volunteers with the sufficient experience or competence (LCMLA level 1 would be a good box to have ticked) who actually want to take kids caving every Tuesday evening for 2/3 hours...

Is it the real problem?

Do we really think the way forward is to have kids being taken caving by volunteers every Tuesday evening for 2-3 hours? Personally, I think not.

Is there any caving region in the country (or world for that matter) where parents could drop their kids off at the club hut and where there are sufficient kid-friendly caves within range for a different trip every week? It wouldn't be much of a caving club if they went to the same cave week after week after week (mind you people kick the same ball across the same pitch week after week  ).

In my view caving is not well suited to guided kids trips on a weekly evening basis (unless we can get the kids digging; now there's an idea!). A more appropriate approach would be caving as an occasional activity in other youth organisations, such as scouts, cadets or schools. Alternatively, what about caving during holdiday camps?

Guess what though (or ask any outdoor instructor), these things already exist and happen. There are loads of kids adventureous activities during the school holidays, or as part of school trips. And guess what else, it's generally the commercial caving (/outdoor) instructors who run these activities. EECC and FSC excepted, but again, this isn't "tuesday evening for 2-3 hours" it's occasional camps.

This isn't the real problem. Kids do what their parents/ schools give them to do and many, many kids get a go at caving, some like it, some don't.

The real problem is reaching out to young adults who are free to choose what they want to do for themselves. Translating the "been caving as a kid and enjoyed it" into becoming a caver. Like it or not, if you live in a caving region, or happen to go to a university with a caving club, this will be much easier.

Universities provide a social space where young people come together in one place, free and trusting to meet new people, new ideas and new activities. This is the perfect environment to introduce young adults to caving.

In a caving region, people will see cavers, meet cavers and hear cavers chatting in the pubs, another great environment for nurturing an interest. I recall getting a funny look off a young bloke in the pub on the edge of Mendip once; we were covered in mud after digging, he asked what we'd been up to, said he'd been caving as a kid and next thing we knew, he'd joined the club and was a regular on the digging team as well as sporting trips in the area and further afield.

For those outside a caving region, or university environment, I guess the internet is the next best thing and I guess the debate here is really about how best to use the internet to reach out to potential cavers and that is basically what the PR students were trying to do.

 

[nobrotson]

The real problem is reaching out to young adults who are free to choose what they want to do for themselves. Translating the "been caving as a kid and enjoyed it" into becoming a caver. Like it or not, if you live in a caving region, or happen to go to a university with a caving club, this will be much easier.

Universities provide a social space where young people come together in one place, free and trusting to meet new people, new ideas and new activities. This is the perfect environment to introduce young adults to caving.

In a caving region, people will see cavers, meet cavers and hear cavers chatting in the pubs, another great environment for nurturing an interest. I recall getting a funny look off a young bloke in the pub on the edge of Mendip once; we were covered in mud after digging, he asked what we'd been up to, said he'd been caving as a kid and next thing we knew, he'd joined the club and was a regular on the digging team as well as sporting trips in the area and further afield.

For those outside a caving region, or university environment, I guess the internet is the next best thing and I guess the debate here is really about how best to use the internet to reach out to potential cavers and that is basically what the PR students were trying to do.

Spot on. Peachey's comment earlier about not being elitist is key to involving young adults who are not at university, and I feel that this attitude is very strong amongst student cavers.

People outside of caving regions that want to start definitely have it more difficult these days than they might have done 30 years ago. My parents were in a caving club based in Northamptonshire in the late 80s and early 90s (before I was born), and despite the distance to caving regions for them at its peak the club had a lot of experienced cavers and was actively caving at least once a month. The club had people with a range of ages and professions, but was primarily working people who hadn't been to university. My parents were exceptions to this, having both been to university. I don't really know the exact reasons that it was easier for them to do this in their 20s and 30s than it is today. Maybe understanding this is a way toward getting young people outside of caving regions involved again?

 

[cap n chris]

Guess what though (or ask any outdoor instructor), these things already exist and happen. There are loads of kids adventureous activities during the school holidays, or as part of school trips. And guess what else, it's generally the commercial caving (/outdoor) instructors who run these activities.

Pete is correct, I believe.

Everyone can stop worrying. There is PLENTY of under 18s caving occurring in this nation; masses of it.

However, in many instances if a young participant wants to progress and take things further in a structured way there is little on offer for them - exceptions being the Scouts and similar bodies. Clubs by and large are not seeking unaccompanied under 18s, and even if they were they would probably not be equipped to emulate, free of charge, the professional sector, which I guess most of their potentially concerned parents would expect, furthermore BCA's own Youth and Development had hitherto appeared to be focused on CHECC (which is adult, 18+, by definition) although I understand there are very significant good moves being made with regard to under 18s; all of this is unsurprising considering BCA and Regional Councils are mostly comprised of (and focus their attention on) caving clubs, and British Caving Clubs are historically pub-centric groups and that doesn't really help. Many European organisations are not like this.

Caving is not under threat by a demographic transition, as stated in previous comment(s), it will continue to exist, but in a different manner so perhaps a way forward is to seek a visionary future for caving rather than hand-wringing about how things can be made to repeat golden decades from another century. The framework organisational bodies are under threat, for sure, though, and the alarm bells have been ringing loudly for more years than I care to recall; the surprise is that they are only appearing to be heard now.

 

[NewStuff]

You *have* to join a club you *have* to have insurance.

Largely gone here (N.Wales) now, and from what I read/hear, other places are doing a similar thing. We just go out and do what we want. There is some common sense needed about some of the more sensitive places, but that's word of mouth rather than "You will do it our way!".

A lot of the old boys that just refuse to change are becoming less and less relevant as time goes on.

Just take your mates caving, you don't *need* a club if you don't want one. Unless you're on Mendip, then you're probably shit out of luck.

 

[Pitlamp]

In the Dales at least, it's very different from the picture you paint above, NewStuff. The two clubs I belong to here are thriving. One has junior membership and the other encourages younger cavers in all sorts of other ways. Both clubs recognise that youngsters are the lifeblood of our community.

It could be an oversimplification but I get the impression you're not very keen on clubs. Maybe you've been unfortunate in those you've been associated with in the past?

I try to look at it this way; you can do all the things you want to, whether a member or outside of a club. But you get so much more by being in one.

 

[nearlywhite]

...furthermore BCA's own Youth and Development had hitherto appeared to be focused on CHECC (which is adult, 18+, by definition) although I understand there are very significant good moves being made with regard to under 18s;

Unsurprisingly I disagree with you again on this topic. CHECC isn't 18+ by definition, if it was we'd all have fewer headaches. However I believe the reason it may seem like there has been more of a focus on CHECC related issues is largely down to engagement - they're really easy to work with so progress is made faster. It's been a lot harder to make headway with Scout type stuff because the bureaucracy is a lot more intransigent and there's more safeguarding to be done. There are also fewer volunteers with as much time.

The reason we have one Youth and Development Group is that benefit to one of the components tends to be of benefit to the others and they share similar problems. An FSC caver that becomes a scout leader and runs a university club is not atypical. What I have really wanted to do is engage the membership of normal clubs with an information campaign about the actual legalities of taking children caving but we had to wait on first the safeguarding policy and secondly on the legality of consent. We did make BCA membership free for under 18s as this was restricting the number of trips that they could be taken on before having to pay to be members, so we do focus on all the aspects. We're actually in a good place to support projects and clubs now - we just need engagement.

I've really enjoyed this thread so far, so please do comment and get in touch. I'm sure the rest of Y&D are reading too.

 

[NewStuff]

In the Dales at least, it's very different from the picture you paint above, NewStuff. The two clubs I belong to here are thriving. One has junior membership and the other encourages younger cavers in all sorts of other ways. Both clubs recognise that youngsters are the lifeblood of our community.

It could be an oversimplification but I get the impression you're not very keen on clubs. Maybe you've been unfortunate in those you've been associated with in the past?

I try to look at it this way; you can do all the things you want to, whether a member or outside of a club. But you get so much more by being in one.

I don't have an issue with all clubs, I actually formed one. Just the ones that flat refuse to modernise and move with the times. Funny handshake, old boys network and all that. Insistence you join *that* club before you're allowed in *their* holes. They do exist, and I get the impression that in some places, they're the norm. I also have issue with those that insist that joing a club is a mandatory prerequisite to any caving at all, which is a surprisingly common attitude. Thankfully, those particular types of club are dwindling and becoming less relevant. I understand that other clubs without attitudes like that are doing far better.

I caved/explored without club or insurance quite some time. The sole club I was in (UCET) before helping form this one (Deep Dark Dirty Wet Holes), was just fine, cracking bunch of people. However, I'm known, quite rightly, for being a gobby type I'm quite prone to telling other clubs or individuals being silly to "feck off" or other, rather less polite phrases, and go right ahead with what I was going to do anyway. I didn't want that rubbing off on the good reputation of UCET, so I left. We're still on good terms, but I'm not a member. There are a few like me around here, so we got together and formed the least clublike club you could get away with. I have to stress that at no point did, nor would they, ask me to leave or not renew my membership. It was soley my decision.

I imagine DDDWH's constitution made a few people giggle or snort coffee. We've also dropped the BCA, as we want no association with a body that panders to the wishes of a minority. We accept it's changing, and that there are some sterling efforts to help it do so, Tim Allen and David Rose being notable. However, we feel there is still a ways to go. We will not be members again until it is sorted. Once the few individuals and clubs that were deliberatly obstructive are sorted out, we'll happily join again, as we've said all along.

We do take a fair few noobs out, despite not being the "type" of club to cater for it. We do try to nudge them UCET's way for a gentler introduction to the underground, rather than straight into a dig or a stomp round a slate mine with dodgy ceilings. We also make it very clear that it's entirely at their risk, and we are not in any way, shape or form, insured for anything at all. If someone is still game, we take them out, see what they make of it, and us. Some are just as daft and opiniated as us, and so continue to explore with us. Some don't like it at all, expecting showcave type stuff is common, and I think I may have sucessfully nudged a few into other clubs. Several of our members are teenagers, or where when they joined.

Hope that helps clear up my views on clubs. Soem are excellent, some are awful, and a lot are somewhere inbetween.

 

[Pitlamp]

Thanks NewStuff; that goes quite some way to explaining.

I do think things are different here in the Dales though (and also in the Peak District, where I've caved a lot too).

Between me and you, I've always been aware of how lucky I am to have started caving when things were far simpler for youngsters. The circumstances of my own caving initiation made me (and the mates I caved with early on) very independent and self reliant, in a way that must be more difficult these days. But despite this, I really enjoy being a member of the various clubs I'm in.