Survey/journal availability
- Thread starter MarkS
- Start date
MarkS
Moderator
Thanks for the responses. I?m very encouraged to hear that there are multiple clubs addressing this, and I perhaps hadn't considered all the practicalities of copyright and scanning large formats. Thanks to everyone who has highlighted the clubs that have already published information that my searches hadn't uncovered.
I couldn't agree more. This is probably the crux of why I asked the question. I can't see any real reason that material taking so much effort to prepare sometimes has such limited availability.
Pwhole, I should clarify that I?m not suggesting that journals shouldn't be available as hard copies. Just that if journals were available online the wider caving community would benefit, which I suspect is the general aim of producing journals in the first place. It seems totally reasonable if they are only produced as hard copies initially for financial reasons, but I think it would be nice to see older journals available online.
The responses on here perhaps highlight a lack of consistency in terms of where information is available. I think it would be really useful for (and in the interests of) regional councils to publicise the available surveys and journal articles relating to the regions.
Swallowneck said:
I couldn't agree more. This is probably the crux of why I asked the question. I can't see any real reason that material taking so much effort to prepare sometimes has such limited availability.
Pwhole, I should clarify that I?m not suggesting that journals shouldn't be available as hard copies. Just that if journals were available online the wider caving community would benefit, which I suspect is the general aim of producing journals in the first place. It seems totally reasonable if they are only produced as hard copies initially for financial reasons, but I think it would be nice to see older journals available online.
The responses on here perhaps highlight a lack of consistency in terms of where information is available. I think it would be really useful for (and in the interests of) regional councils to publicise the available surveys and journal articles relating to the regions.
Kenilworth
New member
MarkS said:
Perhaps the work wasn't done for the benefit of anyone other than the workers.
As a collector of caving journals, I suspect otherwise.
2xw
Active member
The lack of digitization for surveys could be identified as an issue as Phil has said.
I don't know whether I've stated this before, but anything up to A3 can be digitized by myself in Sheffield for free (or for a low price if there's a deadline...). Currently, I am digitizing the entire Hazelton cave biology database, as there are limited paper copies. If you give me a copy that I can destroy (as in take the binding off and have it as loose sheets) entire journals can be digitized at exceptionally low cost. The only stipulation is that anything I digitize is then available under CC-BY license (open access, for everyone, for free, for ever). Obviously if you'd like to sell paper copies, as a printers we can also do those (up to A3, anything larger is out of house). We also do journals and books - good examples are the SUSS calendar and journals.
In Sheffield, we don't have the capacity to digitize stuff larger than A3. The price for digitizing large surveys is minimum ?15 (for two items). Three would be ?18.38 inc VAT. Every extra sheet would then be ?6.13, and these would be provided as a .TIFF and .JPEG (which we can convert to other formats probably in house). This is not through the Sheffield printers, but through the print service at the University of York, who have experience handling old documents (the price is based on the surveys having been stored rolled and therefore needing weight with perspex etc). They are quite professional and have good customer service, and would be amenable to an approach where we give them a load of surveys and they then try and digitize as many as possible with a set sum of money. This is all something for the BCA library to consider I suppose.
After I have finished Hazelton, I intend to discuss (when she returns from a deserved break) with Jenny Potts, the cataloging and digitizing of the collections of John Beck and Doug Nash.
After that I highly encourage folks to message me with stacks of bits of paper for digitization!
I don't know whether I've stated this before, but anything up to A3 can be digitized by myself in Sheffield for free (or for a low price if there's a deadline...). Currently, I am digitizing the entire Hazelton cave biology database, as there are limited paper copies. If you give me a copy that I can destroy (as in take the binding off and have it as loose sheets) entire journals can be digitized at exceptionally low cost. The only stipulation is that anything I digitize is then available under CC-BY license (open access, for everyone, for free, for ever). Obviously if you'd like to sell paper copies, as a printers we can also do those (up to A3, anything larger is out of house). We also do journals and books - good examples are the SUSS calendar and journals.
In Sheffield, we don't have the capacity to digitize stuff larger than A3. The price for digitizing large surveys is minimum ?15 (for two items). Three would be ?18.38 inc VAT. Every extra sheet would then be ?6.13, and these would be provided as a .TIFF and .JPEG (which we can convert to other formats probably in house). This is not through the Sheffield printers, but through the print service at the University of York, who have experience handling old documents (the price is based on the surveys having been stored rolled and therefore needing weight with perspex etc). They are quite professional and have good customer service, and would be amenable to an approach where we give them a load of surveys and they then try and digitize as many as possible with a set sum of money. This is all something for the BCA library to consider I suppose.
After I have finished Hazelton, I intend to discuss (when she returns from a deserved break) with Jenny Potts, the cataloging and digitizing of the collections of John Beck and Doug Nash.
After that I highly encourage folks to message me with stacks of bits of paper for digitization!
There is a Hazelton Cave Biology Database already in the Cave Registry Data Archive
I assume you are part of the project to get more of this on line and make a database that can be added to in the future, if not you should probably get in touch with them, information available on the Biology Data Project page
Also in other repositories some of scans of surveys that have been used to reconstruct data to build models.
The aim of the archive is to have all the raw data available, then people will be able to produce whatever they want in the future, given the correct permissions. Lots of surveys are there and due to the nature of the data, many outputs can be achieved, however, you do need to know how to use the programs. That said most of the Mendip stuff you just need to find the cave load up the data and press one button and a survey of what is in there will appear.
As it has been commented on above, some people want to keep the data they hold private/secret. The archive allows for this, it means that this data is more likely to be available in the future as the archive provides a backup central place looked after by the BCA, so if and when people loose interest in caving the data does not go with them, unfortunately this has been a common cause of loss in the past. So whatever scanning is done an important feature is to make sure it is stored somewhere that will be maintained by the community whenever individuals decide to move on.
I assume you are part of the project to get more of this on line and make a database that can be added to in the future, if not you should probably get in touch with them, information available on the Biology Data Project page
Also in other repositories some of scans of surveys that have been used to reconstruct data to build models.
The aim of the archive is to have all the raw data available, then people will be able to produce whatever they want in the future, given the correct permissions. Lots of surveys are there and due to the nature of the data, many outputs can be achieved, however, you do need to know how to use the programs. That said most of the Mendip stuff you just need to find the cave load up the data and press one button and a survey of what is in there will appear.
As it has been commented on above, some people want to keep the data they hold private/secret. The archive allows for this, it means that this data is more likely to be available in the future as the archive provides a backup central place looked after by the BCA, so if and when people loose interest in caving the data does not go with them, unfortunately this has been a common cause of loss in the past. So whatever scanning is done an important feature is to make sure it is stored somewhere that will be maintained by the community whenever individuals decide to move on.
2xw
Active member
Yes Andrew, I'm doing it for Graham Proudlove. PM me if you want more details.
I don't have anything to do with private or secret data however and I won't work on that. Private or secret data is data that might as well not exist at all and I won't put any effort into it.
That being said I am willing to digitise anything, up to A3, for free. It can be stored in the BCA database, on a drive, on a flash card, anything you want really! As I say, just drop me a pm.
I don't have anything to do with private or secret data however and I won't work on that. Private or secret data is data that might as well not exist at all and I won't put any effort into it.
That being said I am willing to digitise anything, up to A3, for free. It can be stored in the BCA database, on a drive, on a flash card, anything you want really! As I say, just drop me a pm.
alastairgott
Well-known member
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/about/commercial-opportunities/digitisation-services/why-digitise/
One of the points I was trying to make, scanning is not that difficult, if a little time consuming. I can access very big scanners for free. It is what you do with it afterward, anyone willing to help should be encouraged, I applaud your effort. You could put digitised media on a service like dropbox, but unless the individual maintains it, at some point it will disappear,I've had commercial services give very short notice of there immanent demise.The archive is run by the national body that has systems to keep the data.
As for secret data, I make all my data available with various open licences, but that does not make all private data bad. Two examples spring to mind. The data behind a survey, where the survey is available, or the text behind a guide book, with conditions it remains private until the survey or books are sold out. There are many others, like the law of the country, the false dichotomy position is easy to take and forums tend lead to it, but in the end the real world is far more complex,
As for secret data, I make all my data available with various open licences, but that does not make all private data bad. Two examples spring to mind. The data behind a survey, where the survey is available, or the text behind a guide book, with conditions it remains private until the survey or books are sold out. There are many others, like the law of the country, the false dichotomy position is easy to take and forums tend lead to it, but in the end the real world is far more complex,
2xw
Active member
andrew said:
It feels like your making a moot point, as if I was somehow unaware that things would need safely storing afterwards. Not just gunna put it on a memory stick and throw it in a river, rest assured? You're right, its not very time consuming (thousand scans an hour if they're in good nick) but nobody seems to be doing it and it's very frustrating - at the moment, a wayward building fire could wipe out a lot of peoples work. If you can access big scanners for free, perhaps you would like to volunteer?
andrew said:
Never said private data is bad. I just said its worthless unless someone can read it (it might as well not exist at all). The text to a guide book is eminently worthless until you print it out and sell it. Etc.
My main point is that I won't work for free on material which is hidden, secreted etc. The real world might be complex but I am not.
2xw said:
Believe me lots of people have done things like this and just left them on a memory stick, or equivelant
I have already utilised the scanning quite a bit and I've already volunteered to do more for the caving community than I can keep up with, but can probably help, however, Ian looks like he has stepped up to the plate.