Taking the wider view.....

[Stu]

Question: is it safer to take sufficient tackle to rig a line on every single drop in a cave of 2 metres or over thereby requiring a large party to carry everything and a timescale of days or to just rig the longest/most difficult/most dangerous of those, have a much smaller party and be out before closing time?

Just asking.

If the consequences of a fall are pretty fatal or if the chances are high that a slip/fall may occur then it would be safer. It's basic risk management strategy. Of course it has to be outweighed against the extra possible time of set up (though often you may get people up/down quicker because you are using a line which offsets the initial set up time).

 

[AndyF]

Out of interest, where in Slaughter Stream Cave did the fall occur?

I'm not sure of the name of the area (it was my first visit to the cave) but it was just above a scramble up by a waterfall at the opposite end of a chamber reached by low crawls and some walking passge.

Zuree Aven; HTF did he fall off that?.... :roll:

Yes, that was it, it was someone I used to know. I won't name names but suffice to say that he was nicknamed the "bumblemuppet".

In his defence though apparently a hold fell off....

 

[NZcaver]

That speed climbing thing is a bit speeded up (although dan osman did solo routes at incredible speed - just not that fast).

And more importantly Dan Osman died bridge/rock jumping - tie a rope onto a bridge/overhanging cliff - jump off.


His rope snapped - i.e equiment failure -

so get your facts straight before you use it as an example of someone dieing whilst soloing.

Thanks for the clarification - I was not aware of that. I was basing my comments off this quote on the website -

"This is amazing footage of Dan Osman performing his mind boggling speed climbing that eventually took his life."

Do you have any links to the accident report? It would be interesting to know exactly how and why his rope just "snapped". Was it really faulty equipment, or was it being used in an unsafe manner inconsistent with it's design - therefore making the accident a case of user error?

I'd be interested to know... :?

 

[cap n chris]

Good article here:

http://outside.away.com/magazine/0499/9904terminal.html

 

[Peter Burgess]

A different aspect of this, but within the scope of risk management...

The stability or otherwise of the places we explore. Boulder chokes move, but we still squeeze through them. Surely we appreciate that we have no way of knowing when the rocks are going to move again. And surely appreciating that however mimimal the effect of our presence is, it could be our weight that triggers the next movement of the rocks. Similarly, walking underneath unstable roofs, especially in mines where the miners knew thay had to place supports to keep the place safe. Those supports are usually well past their 'use by' date.

These are risks we are prepared to take, but they really can't be quantified. Are we just letting our curiosity overcome our reason? Or is it a bit like living in an earthquake zone, or next to a volcano. You know that one day its going to blow, but are prepared to live each day as though it isn't going to happen, and if it does, you'll survive.

 

[cap n chris]

Yes, but there's another category of risk management as highlighted by the comment above.....

Should cavers take into consideration the nicknames of the people in the group when it comes to deciding on a trip? i.e. would it be wise to stick with non-vertical trips when you have people in the group with names like Bumble muppet, Butterfingers, Snappylegs or WhereRu?

Come to think of it, are there any other nominatively-deterministic names out there? OK, slightly OT but.....

 

[Peter Burgess]

NEW TOPIC, NEW TOPIC!!!!

 

[gus horsley]

These are risks we are prepared to take, but they really can't be quantified. Are we just letting our curiosity overcome our reason?

I suppose we should analyse individually why we go caving/climbing/base-jumping in order to answer that question. I suspect everyone has different reasons or combinations of reasons (curiosity, adrenaline rush, posing potential, eccentricity, etc) which give us the risk-acceptance parameters. I also suspect these combinations of reasons are given different priorities at times so therefore our risk-acceptance parameters also change. Maybe that's why they can't be quantified.

 

[Dep]

These are risks we are prepared to take, but they really can't be quantified. Are we just letting our curiosity overcome our reason?

I suppose we should analyse individually why we go caving/climbing/base-jumping in order to answer that question. I suspect everyone has different reasons or combinations of reasons (curiosity, adrenaline rush, posing potential, eccentricity, etc) which give us the risk-acceptance parameters. I also suspect these combinations of reasons are given different priorities at times so therefore our risk-acceptance parameters also change. Maybe that's why they can't be quantified.

In a similar vein there is also the temptation to redefine these parameters according to the needs of the moment - ie I really want to get in there so I shall turn a blind eye to this particular risk, or find some way to justify it to myself.

Peter Burgess referred to roof-fall risks. There are lots of places like this, with multi-tonne rocks waiting to fall. Obviously not places to linger and it ultimately comes down to a pure gamble. The odds are it won't fall on you today, but...

So again, a calculated risk, the only way to be 100% safe is to not go in there. But as we all know this is not an option!

I do not worry about the experienced people with me, they have eyes and understand the site and its associated risks as well as I do.
But when leading new people it is critically important to point out the specfic hazards and to explain the 'probabilities' so that they are making their own informed decision rather than blindly following in the assumption that all is well.

 

[gus horsley]

Come to think of it, are there any other nominatively-deterministic names out there? OK, slightly OT but.....

I used to know Glasshands, Rockfall, Phantom Turd, Sheepshagger and Tosspot but I suppose the last one doesn't count. I recall there used to be an aristocratic climber called the Tumbling Lord but I didn't personally know him since he was before my time (circa 1874).

 

[NZcaver]

Good article here:

http://outside.away.com/magazine/0499/9904terminal.html

Thanks, cap'n chris! Very interesting. :shock:

From the last page -

Park authorities were involved in an investigation that was taking longer than Osman's friends thought it should, and in December a group of them retrieved the upper sections of the jump line and sent it to Black Diamond Equipment for analysis. The results, which they have since submitted to the Park Service, postulate a theory that seems to indicate not system failure but human error: In short, Osman had failed to realize that changing his jump angle would ultimately place an unbearable load on one of the knots that connected the ropes of his jump line.

So his MO was apparently to jump from an insane height using a bunch of climbing ropes tied together to arrest his fall. Just like bungy jumping!
Oh, but wait - with a lot less stretch, a lot higher impact force, a bunch of knots along the way, and all this anchored at 90 degrees to a friggin' overtensioned highline!!! "Calculated" risk...? :roll:

And I found this great little quote from the author hiding on page 3 -

...I talked about the special fear I always felt when I was rappelling or otherwise depending entirely on a piece of equipment rather than on my hands and feet...

In light of the subject of the article, I can understand why he feels that way. Personally, I'm usually very happy to trust my life completely on a piece of equipment - as long as I understand exactly how it works and what it's limitations are.
It's the joy of death-gripping little flakes of rock with sweaty fingers that I just don't get... :wink:

 

[epik]

So his MO was apparently to jump from an insane height using a bunch of climbing ropes tied together to arrest his fall. Just like bungy jumping!
Oh, but wait - with a lot less stretch, a lot higher impact force, a bunch of knots along the way, and all this anchored at 90 degrees to a friggin' overtensioned highline!!! "Calculated" risk...? :roll:

So you've never seen the pictures of Leo Holdings jumping off El Cap in Yosemite! Infact as long as you only ever fall from your anchor and not above the fall factor is only ever going to be 1 so doesnt matter how far the fall is on a climbing rope! Leo fell 50m and looked like he loved it!

 

[epik]

I agree, free-climbing is far more dangerous. And actually, I WOULD like to insist those who enjoy it are somewhat irresponsible. :shock:

Guilty as charged! Still im not going to loose any sleep over it!

 

[NZcaver]

So you've never seen the pictures of Leo Holdings jumping off El Cap in Yosemite! Infact as long as you only ever fall from your anchor and not above the fall factor is only ever going to be 1 so doesnt matter how far the fall is on a climbing rope! Leo fell 50m and looked like he loved it!

Can't say I have. I've never heard of Leo what-his-name either, but then I'm not really into hanging around rocks watching climbers/jumpers.

Technically speaking, you're right about the Fall Factor 1 of course. However, all dynamic ropes have a limit of maximum stretch. If you take a fall while doing a regular climb, you might reach a velocity of 20 or 30 metres per second before the rope (and belayer) catches you. Now if you jump off El Cap, it would be quite feasible (not to mention crazy) to reach terminal velocity of 100m/s. Climbing ropes are designed to stretch "normally" up to about 8 or 10%, so despite having a massive long rope with what appears to be a lot of stretch distance - I'd imagine the resulting impact force on the anchor, rope, and body must be hideous.

This could be the reason that rope manufacturers generally don't produce climbing ropes longer than about 50 metres. So tying a bunch of ropes together and anchoring them from a tensioned highline is a very dumb idea (in my humble opinion) - FF1 or not.

Anyway, good luck with the free-climbing. I'd say "be safe", but that might be a little contradictory... :wink:

 

[andymorgan]

I heard a story of a well known cave diver jumping off a well known high bridge, using a rope...

 

[AndyF]

They do a bridge jump at Annecy in france. Two bridges about 50m apart, tie onto one, jump off the other. Prussick back up over 600ft of space..

My mate did it. They set it all up, by which time a crowd had gathered to watch. They wanted to changed their mind, but with a large crowd they felt it would let the flag down....

It was a swing rather than plummet, so good for FF. Scary though.....

Some years a go an advert was in Mountain magazine showing some lass doing it (the jump that is). She had two ropes IIRC.

 

[gus horsley]

The local climbers used to do bridge jumps off the Menai Bridge until someone narrowly missed the mast of a yacht. For months afterwards the police regularly patrolled it to make sure no other clown tried something similar.

 

[danthecavingman]

Not quite the same, but I believe Mr Pitlamp did a 17m (?) freefall into the Bathing Pool in Speedwell after climbing the aven above and finding it didn't go. Any truth in that?
And whilst I remember, did you ever go back to Secret Sump? It's a goer that one.....

Dan.

 

[Brains]

As someone once said...
"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, bacon bap in one hand, beer in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!" "

 

[emgee]

The local climbers used to do bridge jumps off the Menai Bridge until someone narrowly missed the mast of a yacht. For months afterwards the police regularly patrolled it to make sure no other clown tried something similar.

Reminds me of the mountain unicyclists; google for Kriss Holm. There's a video of him riding on the handrail of a similarly high bridge. After a bit you notice he's playing safe he's riding right on the inside edge so if he slips he'll land on the bridge not fall off. That's when you get impressed with his skill of course. But in my experience unicycling is far more likely to injure you than caving.