Taking the wider view.....

[Peter Burgess]

Much of what is discussed in the equipment section concerns what is the best, or safest, and of course it is important that we should understand what the dangers are, when it comes to the equipment we use to cave safely.

But I think that often we lose sight of a wider perspective. Perhaps this is easier for us longer-in-the-tooth cavers to appreciate, but .....

Let's take ladders. Hemp rope and wood. Dangerous, cumbersome, impractical. Nobody uses them anymore, do they? That's because the electron ladder came along. Far, far safer.

There have been similar changes to lighting, helmets, harnesses.....

What about ropes? Hemp ropes - you cannot be serious! So along come synthetic ropes. Nobody uses hemp ropes now do they?

Then along comes SRT. Figs-of-8. Accidents galore. Was this an advance on ladders? In terms of safety that is? Better devices come onto the market. All infinitely safer than a fig-of-8. So why argue the toss so much about the dangers of this, or that technique? Yes by all means discuss these things, but remember that what was once considered safe (electron ladder plus line) is no less safe just because something else comes along that may be argued to be safer. SRT was not introduced for reasons of safety, surely? It was for reasons of convenience and speed.

Put things into perspective. Use of a ladder and line has dangers, but provided they are used properly those dangers are kept to a minimum.

Consider free-climbing a rock face. It's an exciting and accepted aspect of caving and rock-climbing. There is no such thing as an EU-standard foothold or a kite-marked human hand. The use of hands and feet alone to climb a rock face is far more dangerous than using a rope, or a ladder. Yet nobody surely is going to insist that those who enjoy free-climbing are irresponsible.

Perhaps we try to delude ourselves into thinking that caving is no more dangerous than a trip to Woolworths. Well, caving has risks. It wouldn't really be so much fun without those risks. The trick is to manage those risks so they are at an acceptably low level. How low that level of risk should be is possibly a personal matter.

Discuss.

 

[NZcaver]

...Consider free-climbing a rock face. It's an exciting and accepted aspect of caving and rock-climbing. There is no such thing as an EU-standard foothold or a kite-marked human hand. The use of hands and feet alone to climb a rock face is far more dangerous than using a rope, or a ladder. Yet nobody surely is going to insist that those who enjoy free-climbing are irresponsible...

I agree, free-climbing is far more dangerous. And actually, I WOULD like to insist those who enjoy it are somewhat irresponsible. :shock:

http://www.compfused.com/directlink/965/ (Sorry about the ads and pop-ups, but the video is worth seeing.)

That guy is now dead. And surprise, surprise - he died while free-climbing. Well, he knew the risks - right? One little distraction (slippery hold, falling rock, bee-sting, etc), and it's all over. Luckily he didn't take out anyone else on the way down, or at the bottom. At the very least some poor sucker had to spend their time scraping this guy's remains up off the rock to give to his family. Inevitably there is a big investigation, lots of press, and the area gets closed indefinitely to rock climbers. Way to go, spanker! :roll:

You are right about one thing, though. Just because better techniques become available, it doesn't necessarily make the older ones less safe. Just like modern medicine, really. Bloodletting and electroshock are no less safe now than when they were mainstream practices... :wink:

Seriously, it's all about knowing your capabilities and the gear you use, and managing the risk. Which is (of course) even more important when you're leading others. Although some of our opinions obviously differ, I think that's pretty much what you're trying to get across - right?

 

[Dep]

Aren’t debates fun. Just like most other aspects of life there is no black or white, right or wrong, you can pick and mix different viewpoints to find your own in there somewhere…

I have to say I was rather surprised by the number of ladder breaking incidents reported on the thread this has spawned from…
http://ukcaving.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=1859&start=30

This has rather changed my view, certainly for others caving with me. Personally I have no qualms about climbing a short ladder pitch unassisted (or short rock climbs) I enjoy the challenge and to be truthful I get a buzz out of the little twinge of fear that I experience each time. :twisted:

I always have a rope available for those who need/want it, always insist that anyone that I have never seen climb a ladder or who I have any doubts about uses it, but at the same time I would never (under normal circumstances) insist that any experienced people (someone such as Peter for example) use it and instead allow them to make their own choices.

But as soon as I am dealing with a pitch where we are talking certain serious injury or death then it is a different matter – a lifeline is a must and I always have one.

I have tried various methods and now tend to use an Italian, a gri-gri or my stop depending on depth, number of people, direction, speed etc etc. As long as it can be locked off or lowered at will (and ideally reversible/re-riggable for hauling too) then it does the job safely. There may be some discomfort involved but not a fall.

I keep a close eye on the kit we use (I will keep a closer eye on the ladders now, especially the end sections of the wire between the last rung and the C-clips!) :shock:

Modern society has a funny attitude towards safety. I don’t want to HAVE to do this that and the other, just take sensible precautions without going overboard. Once you start talking about multiple belays backups, special kit – shock absorbers and so on then it is going too far, and the simple solution is to stay at home!

As Peter rightly says, going caving is not like going to the shops, there is a certain irreducible risk which in itself is part of the appeal.

I spent my youth as a biker. Not chops but sports bikes, the ones that go very fast!
I had my fair share of accidents but finally reached the age of 40 with all of my limbs intact(ish) and still able to walk and count to 10. With a wife, mortgage and two kids it finally dawned on me that this really was unjustifiably risky, a final high-speed near miss made up my mind and I have retired from biking. I still needed a hobby and most of all an adrenaline hit in my life though, and caving provides it. But in terms of danger they are NOT in the same league, so when I hear people coming up with all sorts of possible risk scenarios underground I cannot help but chuckle to myself sometimes.

As long as you use your kit sensibly, check what you do, stick to tried and tested methods and have both plan A and B in mind I believe that you have covered everything that you can influence and have thus reduced the risk to an acceptable level. Anything else is an act of God or whatever you choose to call it, nothing you can do about that.

Life is full of risks. The next dinosaur killer asteroid might be whipping around the other side of the sun to blind-side us even now…

 

[paul]

Good post!

However,

Personally I have no qualms about climbing a short ladder pitch unassisted (or short rock climbs) I enjoy the challenge and to be truthful I get a buzz out of the little twinge of fear that I experience each time.

[snip]

But as soon as I am dealing with a pitch where we are talking certain serious injury or death then it is a different matter – a lifeline is a must and I always have one

It seems that many measure the risk of climbing (up or down) a pitch as proportional to its length. A 30 meter pitch appears much more threatening than a short, little "friendly" 6 or 7 metre pitch. Many would not even consider climbing a 30 metre pitch without a lifeline but think nothing of the 6 or 7 metre pitch without one.

Paramedics (at least those I know, including caving ones) treat any fall from TWO metres as possibly life-threatening. The series of three "clutch and plummet" incidents at Garlands Pot in Giants Hole a couple of years ago (albeit on SRT but the injuries were due to impact with the ground and the same result would occur regardless of whether a ladder breaks or there is an uncontroled abseil or just a tumble off the head of the pitch) resulted in serious back injuries with one caver in hospital for weeks.

Fall down 30 metres and you're probably dead. Fall down a short pitch and face a long, painful carry out on a stretcher.

True, caving (like many other "outdoor" activities) has its Objective dangers (where we have no control over them happening but take calculated risks and accept the risk) such as unexpected flooding, rock fall, bad air, etc.

But there are also Subjective risks where we do have control: always use a lifeline on a ladder, always use cowstails when approaching pitch heads, don't stand around at the bottom of pitches, etc., etc.

 

[gus horsley]

Of course we all take risks underground (and on the surface) and as far as free-climbing underground is concerned, it's a skill which I think should be acquired by all cavers (whether it's enjoyable or not). The idea of the advances in technology is to reduce those risks to an acceptable level. I'm one of those old enough to remember hemp ropes and ladders and when electron ladders came along there were a surprising number of people who wouldn't use them because they looked too flimsy. I also remember doing Nick Pot on an electron ladder and thinking I was going to die of exhaustion/hypothermia/nausea. I'm not sure where I'm going with this, except to the home for ancient rambling boring cavers...in an old ripped boilersuit with several tatty jumpers underneath.

 

[Peter Burgess]

And, Gus, I bet you've still got a stockpile of candles and an old tin half full of stale carbide.

Yes, a fall of 2 metres is potentially fatal. But one factor not yet mentioned is fatique. Unless you have just spent a long time underground, and are absolutely whacked, a 2 metre climb out to the surface, for example, is going to pose little risk in terms of making a mistake through tiredness. I think many people would do a very short ladder climb without worrying that they are too tired to make it to the top. A 20 or 30 m pitch is a different matter. You are more likely to peel off the top of a 20 m pitch through tiredness than a 2 m one.

A lifeline makes any ladder safer regardless of its length.

However, I could kill myself falling down the stairs at home if I was suddenly taken ill at the top, but no-one advocates installing stair lifts in every new home to guard against the possibility that someone might have an accident.

I know a retired ambulanceman and a retired fireman (both cavers) who I suspect would both happily climb a simple 3-4 metre ladder pitch without a line. Knowing the dangers and how to minimise them is not the only factor here. Its the risk one is prepared to accept as an individual. As long as peer pressure doesn't make others do something they would rather not do, I am not sure where the problem is.

 

[cap n chris]

As long as peer pressure doesn't make others do something they would rather not do

But this is precisely what peer pressure does, isn't it?

"What do you mean, you want to use a lifeline? - no-one else is... and anyway, we haven't brought one...."

 

[Peter Burgess]

What I meant was that there should be no peer pressure. Whenever we run a trip involving a ladder, we ALWAYS take a line. And the line is offered to EVERYONE. Ideally, we should all use it, I know, but in practice some of us don't. I trust everyone on the trip understands that the decision is personal, and if someone is new to the group, or is possibly feeling intimidated into not using it, they are virtually told they must use it. This is especially true for minors in the party, even if their parents are there too.

 

[cap n chris]

I agree with you, Peter. However, IIRC there are some places where it would be frowned upon to admit you were so woosy that you use a lifeline on ladder pitches. Me? - I just use the expression "Ladder and Line" and then say the clue is in the statement... "you don't have one without the other".

Macho boll*cks = boll*cks.

Personally I think EVERYONE in a group should use a lifeline since otherwise the impression is given to newcomers who witness the experienced cavers in a group climbing a ladder without a rope that "proper cavers don't use a line" and they then aspire to mimic this.

I don't climb down ladders - just up.

 

[darkplaces]

It depends who you are with Cap' etc. The style for leading a group mixed with differant levels is differant to a small group of experianced adults who know each other well to know its a personal choice and who know nobody else is bothered if a life line is asked for. I like that 'ladder and line' saying good for leading a group to tie the two together. SO I aggree when leading a mixed group the experianced cavers should lead by example and be the first always to show a life line in use.

I firmly beleave danger is a good thing, risk is a good thing and infact we should not strive to remove it all together. Managing the risk to your level is good and fine but humans need risk. Thats why we are over populated, too little risk in the world killing off the weak and sickly.

 

[gus horsley]

It was peer pressure that made me fracture my knee when I was 17 and a bunch of us were trying to outdo each other at the local crag. I only fell a few feet but landed very nastily and chopped my kneecap in half on boulder. If that had happened underground it would have been far more serious. Having said that, I've lost count of the number of times I've climbed ladders without lifelines (including one which snapped) or free-climbed pitches rather than rig them properly. It's the same as being in control of a ton of metal and never thinking about the consequences of piling it into a wall. It's a matter of context.

 

[paul]

Yes, a fall of 2 metres is potentially fatal. But one factor not yet mentioned is fatique. Unless you have just spent a long time underground, and are absolutely whacked, a 2 metre climb out to the surface, for example, is going to pose little risk in terms of making a mistake through tiredness. I think many people would do a very short ladder climb without worrying that they are too tired to make it to the top. A 20 or 30 m pitch is a different matter. You are more likely to peel off the top of a 20 m pitch through tiredness than a 2 m one.

A lifeline makes any ladder safer regardless of its length.

True - fatigue and triedness do affect the chance of falling off a ladder, but the length of the ladder, other than the possibilty of the extra weight, doesn't make it any less prone to equipment failure. There are plenty of examples of ladders failing (including quite a few in another thread on this Forum), belays can fail, you can cock things up like my mate putting his legthrough the ladder on the first pitch in P8 (~ 7 metres) and nearly falling off after turning upside-down. It is for the unexpected failure that a lifeline is also used.

However, I could kill myself falling down the stairs at home if I was suddenly taken ill at the top, but no-one advocates installing stair lifts in every new home to guard against the possibility that someone might have an accident.

True - you could fall down the stairs. The difference is you won't be laying injured in the cold waiting at *least* a couple of hours for the first members of the local CRO to turn up after your mate has exited and dialled 999.

Then you also won't be strapped into a stretcher and man-handled for some hours until eventually exiting the cave and possibly then maybe become an unwilling plarticipant in a mountain rescue to reach the nearset road (unless your injuries are severe enough to warrant an air ambulance).

I was involved in the rescue of a caver who fell of an easy climb some 6 or 8 metres in Slaughter Stream cave a couple of years ago. He had a fractured femur and other injuries. It took about 15 or 20 minutes for the non-injured to reach where he fell. He had the accident at about 1 or 2 pm and exited at 3 in the morning.... That's about 13 hours after the fall.

I'm not suggesting that he should have been lifelined - it was just an unfortunate accident that could have happened to anyone.

The point is that the consequences of a fall in a cave can be much more severe than many other places (even the foot of a crag after falling off while soloing). So why not mimimise the risk and use a lifeline at all times?

 

[cap n chris]

Out of interest, where in Slaughter Stream Cave did the fall occur?

 

[SamT]

I agree, free-climbing is far more dangerous. And actually, I WOULD like to insist those who enjoy it are somewhat irresponsible. :shock:

http://www.compfused.com/directlink/965/ (Sorry about the ads and pop-ups, but the video is worth seeing.)

That guy is now dead. And surprise, surprise - he died while free-climbing.

That speed climbing thing is a bit speeded up (although dan osman did solo routes at incredible speed - just not that fast).

And more importantly Dan Osman died bridge/rock jumping - tie a rope onto a bridge/overhanging cliff - jump off.


His rope snapped - i.e equiment failure -

so get your facts straight before you use it as an example of someone dieing whilst soloing.

 

[cap n chris]

... a big `un too - 1,000 footer :shock:

 

[graham]

Question: is it safer to take sufficient tackle to rig a line on every single drop in a cave of 2 metres or over thereby requiring a large party to carry everything and a timescale of days or to just rig the longest/most difficult/most dangerous of those, have a much smaller party and be out before closing time?

Just asking.

 

[kay]

I firmly beleave danger is a good thing, risk is a good thing and infact we should not strive to remove it all together. Managing the risk to your level is good and fine but humans need risk.

We need challenge, and most good experiences in life involve risk
But I'm not sure our lives are totally our own to do as we please with. I'm very conscious that I am important to my children and husband and father, and that were I to kill myself, that'd be fine and dandy for me but would cause a lot of problems for them. So I owe it to them to be careful.

Fortunately for them I'm cautious by nature :wink:

Thats why we are over populated, too little risk in the world killing off the weak and sickly.

Long live the Darwin Awards!

 

[paul]

Out of interest, where in Slaughter Stream Cave did the fall occur?

I'm not sure of the name of the area (it was my first visit to the cave) but it was just above a scramble up by a waterfall at the opposite end of a chamber reached by low crawls and some walking passge.

 

[paul]

Question: is it safer to take sufficient tackle to rig a line on every single drop in a cave of 2 metres or over thereby requiring a large party to carry everything and a timescale of days or to just rig the longest/most difficult/most dangerous of those, have a much smaller party and be out before closing time?

Just asking.

This is just what "calculated risk" is about! You don't rig a lifeline on every single drop if you think the chances of having a mishap is minimal. You have to weigh the risk of not protecting against a fall against the extra equipment to carry and the extra time needed to complete the trip.

The point I was trying to make earlier is that a many cavers would use a lifeline on a long pitch but often turn their noses up at one on a short pitch as the perception of chance of injury seems to be out of proportion to the length of the pitch. It's the difference between Objective danger where you have no contol over the risk as against Subjective danger where you do.

A caver who thinks he can climb an obstacle underground will consider whether climbing the obstacle is well within his capabilities and has solid enough handholds and footholds not to cause a fall and decide a lifeline is unnecessary. The point is that ladders can fail and sometimes do fail and the fact that it is only a short pitch may not prevent serious injury.

 

[cap n chris]

Out of interest, where in Slaughter Stream Cave did the fall occur?

I'm not sure of the name of the area (it was my first visit to the cave) but it was just above a scramble up by a waterfall at the opposite end of a chamber reached by low crawls and some walking passge.

Zuree Aven; HTF did he fall off that?.... :roll: