Taping in Swildon's Hole

[cap n chris]

Successful mud cleaning after twats have had a "mud fight"* at Tratman's Temple prompts the following question.

Can anyone think of any reasons why there ought not to be a conservation tape pathway created through Tratman's Temple?

More stal cleaning to be done soon can easily be combined with a suitably low-key path being installed; otherwise there seems little point in bothering to clean/keep clean somewhere which will be trampled willy-nilly by passersby.

Your 2p, please.....



* They're such a laugh.


I guess some people think mud makes moonmilk look better

 

[AndyF]

Go for it, but do it nicely.. IIRC there are some BCRA guidlines for this, I think they drill small holes and put stainless steel tent round tent pegs in, then tie with 3mm cord.

Less visual than "workmans" tape...

Andyf

 

[cap n chris]

I debated this with CSCC secretary who assisted with the clean-up; no pegs would be required since tape could be wound around rocks in situ; I propose to instal a minimal bit of tape to see whether it looks "ok" or not. Having done so, there's more cleaning in Trat's to be done to good effect. Shall photo and post here (probably sometime during this coming week).

 

[Peter Burgess]

Its worth doing, and we´ll soon find out whether it is respected or not. Unfortunately, anyone having a mud fight there is unlikely to worry about whether they are on the right or wrong side of a piece of tape. Can´t do any harm, so mine´s a yes.

 

[Stupot]

Was this done during the recent Swildon's incident Chris or is it a seperate act of "Twattness" 


Stu.

PS. I think tape can be good thing, it's just abit of an eyesore though.

 

[graham]

1 Taping is visually intrusive, as intrusive as the effects of a mud fight.

2 Taping would not control the sort of idiots who have mud fights in such an area, in fact it might just encourage them.

3 The walking routes through the chamber are well-established and have probably sustained as much damage as they are going to.

Conclusion. Taping will probably not prevent future damage & will itself be intrusive.

 

[cap n chris]

Graham, your points are entirely valid however there is a different angle to this: while cleaning away the mud it became apparent that more generally the stal around Tratman's Temple was cleaning up well in places - uncovering a layer of accumulated dust spread. As such, TT will clean up very well, revealing superb flowstone in many areas; however, this is a labour of love (and time!) and it seems counter-productive to clean surfaces which are presently part of the general area; so, if a path can be delineated this would make more sense since it would then keep cleaned areas clean for longer and hence justify the cleaning. However, if there is no path and people can traipse everywhere there's not much point in engaging in the amount of time/effort required to revitalise TT (even though it would still probably be worthwhile). I'm aware that there's no merit in cleaning part of the established route/handholds but this is a magnificent chamber and today's efforts revealed an otherwise hidden splendour. I think it is a good project but first needs a path to separate the "go zone" from the "no-go zone". This thread is to establish whether there is outright hostility and/or good cogent reasons to counter the creation/outlining of such a path.

 

[darkplaces]

personally I am in aggreement to Graham's points. 

Swildons is open to all, has a reputation as a sport cave, and your not going to stop idiots with tape. Mud is natural tape is not. I would rather see mud in a cave then bits of tape. Mud well infact prove to be a better protector.

 

[cap n chris]

Would it help to define things better if it was stated that the taping in question would most likely comprise a single piece about 7m long?

 

[graham]

Would it help to define things better if it was stated that the taping in question would most likely comprise a single piece about 7m long?

Single piece? Which side would I walk on?

I think you should observe what happens after cleaning. Experience in G.B. suggests that people do tend to avoid clean(ed) stal & those that don't would ignore tape anyway.

 

[cap n chris]

Would it help to define things better if it was stated that the taping in question would most likely comprise a single piece about 7m long?

Single piece? Which side would I walk on?

Straight down the middle, of course!

 

[Hughie]

I've got to agree with you, Chris, it 's a shame that the minority treat caves like this. However, I dont think taping is the answer - it will get ignored, and the tape will likely end up in a screwed up ball boobing around the pool at sump 1. My thoughts are to leave the stal covered in mud - it's protected the stal up until now.

 

[Slug]

This issue is full of " Pro's & Cons ". True, tape will not deter the S******d intent on willful damage, but,it may serve to alert the novice, and the proverbial " Boy Scout ", to take a bit more care where they step. ( In,  I.I.R.C., Jim Eyres book The Ease Ghill System, there is the sad tale of a beautiful formation, "the Cooling Towers", I think, that are destroyed by the boots of a troupe of Boy Scouts who just didn't appreciate the need not to tread on them, there are before and after pic's. too. ).
I personally think that taping should be applied on a cave by cave basis, some need it, some don't, and those that control/regulate any access arrangements should be the ones to decide. A good example would be the B.E.C.'s Rose Cottage Dig. Some of the Pretties are taped off, though, that may change when active digging has ceased/moved away, but it does let You know where to be more careful.

Discuss ?

 

[cap n chris]

So, to conclude, is it the case that the methods believed to be the best way of preserving pristine formations are:

* Don't put in a delineated path as this will be ignored
* Don't clean stal as it is best preserved by layers of mud

If it is considered wisest to "do nothing" then I can probably just about manage to rustle up the effort required to do precisely that.

 

[cap n chris]

those that control/regulate any access arrangements should be the ones to decide

Given the recent wanton vandalism in Swildon's Hole (of which further damage has been located/noted - which now makes for at least three separate locations* where there has been stal breakages) - and this mud at Tratman's Temple which may or may not be related....

* Involving approximately 8 formations, possibly more.

 

[Jagman]

Cleaning up mud I get.....

But polishing up rock formations and taping out routes for people to follow? Sound more like trying to create a caving Disneyland

 

[Andy Sparrow]

I think you should observe what happens after cleaning. Experience in G.B. suggests that people do tend to avoid clean(ed) stal & those that don't would ignore tape anyway.

Formations of the right side of the First Grotto in GB were cleaned a few years back but now show signs of muddy handprints once again.  This is because people descend against the decorated wall and stick their hand out for balance before really being aware of what they are going to touch.  This is not malicious or ignorant behaviour and there is no reason to assume that average Joe caver would not respect a single tape placed here, to guide him away from those formations.  I do not agree with your assertion, Graham, which seems to be a rather spurious argument that could applied against all taping in all caves.

 

[cap n chris]

Cleaning up mud I get.....

But polishing up rock formations and taping out routes for people to follow? Sound more like trying to create a caving Disneyland

Delineating pathways through delicate/pretty sections of cave has long been established as a conservation method - the pros and cons of which I'm aware of but I don't feel it is my job here to defend the wisdom or relevance of them. I'm not suggesting polishing rocks; the situation is this:

Having been involved in spray cleaning after idiots threw mud onto moonmilk, trials on other surfaces in Tratman's Temple clearly demonstrated that there is plenty of gorgeous pristine stal which has been coated with a layer of dust/mud spread almost certainly by thousands of cavers following the round trip in Swildon's Hole. The section of Tratman's Temple which would benefit from the installation of a single piece of tape (probably about 7m long) is the part which shows promise for cleaning; however, unless a pathway is marked out, errant hands/feet will surely spread mud over the cleaned surfaces, rendering the work pointless. However, I personally feel it is a worthwhile exercise cleaning this part of the cave since it is MAGNIFICENT and - once cleaner - would be even better. This in itself is the reason for suggesting such a course of action.

However, if the majority of people feel that drab muddy chambers are to be preferred over glistening stunning formations then I'm quite happy to stay at home drinking coffee and typing humorous notes into online forums instead of bothering myself to do a lot of needless work*.



* Which I'll probably do anyway, no matter what people write in response.

 

[graham]

I think you should observe what happens after cleaning. Experience in G.B. suggests that people do tend to avoid clean(ed) stal & those that don't would ignore tape anyway.

Formations of the right side of the First Grotto in GB were cleaned a few years back but now show signs of muddy handprints once again.  This is because people descend against the decorated wall and stick their hand out for balance before really being aware of what they are going to touch.  This is not malicious or ignorant behaviour and there is no reason to assume that average Joe caver would not respect a single tape placed here, to guide him away from those formations.  I do not agree with your assertion, Graham, which seems to be a rather spurious argument that could applied against all taping in all caves.

Speaking as the person who cleaned that stal, I can cheerfully state that much of the mud that has appeared since then is quite natural, having been brought in by drips etc. Not all I admit, but the situation is not as bad as you might think, Andy.

 

[anfieldman]

Can anyone think of any reasons why there ought not to be a conservation tape pathway created through Tratman's Temple?


Chris,

As Tratman's was one of the first impressive places I visited as a complete newbie, I see no reason not to tape it, but will it stop twatishness? We had to put up with lager cans, roach ends and broken formations recently and now this. Will a piece of tape stop people throwing mud?
The person or people responsible for this must have been accompanied by some 'sensible' cavers unless the whole group are a**holes. If the whole group are a**holes surely you more experienced cavers know who they are? If so they ought to be named and shamed. I know I would, and more.
I personally think its time we started putting gates on as many caves as possible. I would be interested in others views on this. If you are the sort of caver who wants to keep our caves looking good then you will not mind this.