Taping in Swildon's Hole

[Jagman]

Not wishing to stir an argument.....
But in what way are guide tapes, gates and artificial cleaning of formations (I accept and exclude removing graffiti and repairing damage) any less a form of vandalisation then lager cans and roaches?

Cleaning formations may equally as well interfere with new growth and natural colour variations. Tapes are an eyesore and gates the biggest man made intrusion you can create.

Now, admittedly I am a mine man, I prefer man made spaces but we have probably as many flowstone type formations in metal mines as many natural caves. Manmade contamination along with natural contaminants create some wonderful things, artificially cleaning them of new deposits is simply creating something in the form you wish to see it.

Anfield Man, perhaps you aren't really interested in anybody Else's opinion when you finish your post with
" I would be interested in others views on this. If you are the sort of caver who wants to keep our caves looking good then you will not mind this"

I find the assumption that not liking gates makes you less conservation minded a little unfair to say the least

 

[cap n chris]

Jagman, you make a good point re: man's influence being contrary to natural processes (re: cleaning stal is potentially destructive of microfauna). Keeping somewhere "looking nice" is also a man-made construction - i.e. we do it to please our sense of aesthetics/appearances. Cleaning stal can indeed affect it, especially if done with anything abrasive (brushes etc.).

This thread ought not to dwell on the gates topic since as we all know there are many strongly held views on that topic which has run for page after page elsewhere on this and other forums.

It is worth stating that the cleaning of stal which has taken place so far has been done with pressurised water - Graham rightly points out that some mud on stal is naturally deposited and hence cleaning/washing this away serves no purpose since the active inlet through which the clay/mud finds egress remains and hence further deposition of such material is bound to continue. However, there are clearly areas of TT where mud has been spread by the passage of cavers and this mud has not become locked in to the matrix of the calcite (yet) and will clean off effectively under pressurised water. The use of water from the cave is as "natural" as you can realistically get so the process of introducing a localised deluge of water, over and above the usual natural flow rates, is the issue at hand.... the "unnatural/man-made" process, if you wish. However, to start picking over the finer points of what constitutes unnatural/man-made intervention in a cave environment with repercussions of visual attractiveness is going a bit far, in my book.

If the new debate is "people should not intervene in caves since their actions are not part of the cave cycle and hence have no place within the cave" what is your view on this:

Are people natural?

If we are then, by logical extension, so are cavers. If cavers are natural then their actions within a cave are, too. Therefore, cleaning caves is part of the natural process of the cave cycle. QED. However, on the contrary, it can also be argued using this same logic that vandalism is part of the natural cave process as well so that doesn't really help define a conclusion on this present topic!....

It's a bit late for this; my brain hurts.

 

[Chris J]

Just stick some bloody tape down - we do it all over the place in many different caves, have been doing it for years and it seems to work.

Most people (although not most people who read this forum apparently) will go for taping formations I think.

Gates - fine so long as any bonafide caver can get the key at any time they wish - in practice this is difficult. The keys have to be kept somewhere and handed out/signed out.

If I wish to go caving in the middle of the night or on a Monday afternoon I don't want to worry about getting a key. I accept that in many places I do have to but where the land owner doesn't request it and so far things are ok - don't go adding a gate.

 

[graham]

Just stick some bloody tape down - we do it all over the place in many different caves, have been doing it for years and it seems to work.

Most people (although not most people who read this forum apparently) will go for taping formations I think.

Gates - fine so long as any bonafide caver can get the key at any time they wish - in practice this is difficult. The keys have to be kept somewhere and handed out/signed out.

If I wish to go caving in the middle of the night or on a Monday afternoon I don't want to worry about getting a key. I accept that in many places I do have to but where the land owner doesn't request it and so far things are ok - don't go adding a gate.

Taping works in some places, circumstances and not in others.

How do you define bona fide cavers? I know of damage that has been done in teh past by members of well-known clubs.

if you wish to go caving in the middle of the night you will need to arrange your trip in advance. Tough. Go have an impromptu round of golf instead.

 

[graham]

Are people natural?

A point that has been debated long and hard for many years. In this context, however, it simply means that we (as a whole) should be responsible for our (collective) actions and should act both to prevent undue results of our activities and to restore them, should they have occurred.

That, however, should be the limit of our (collective) intervention.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Chris:

The morons who threw mud about didn't ask permission from the rest of us before they did it.

So, what makes you feel obliged to ask permission from us here to lay down a short length of tape, epsecially as you are the guy with others who has made an effort to clean the place up? Those who don't want to see tape everywhere perhaps should compensate for this reluctance for taping and get down there every six months with water sprays etc.

If you have already made an effort to clean the place up, and want to indicate to the majority of careful cavers where it is acceptable to walk, then do it. Don't ask permission.

 

[Hatstand]

I think there is a place for taping in particular situations however not knowing Swildons (only been down once) I don't know if this is one of them.

However as a novice to natural caves (as opposed to trudging around mines) I am often concentrating on how I am moving around the cave (indeed this is one of the aspects I am finding particularly interesting at the moment) and the odd bit of tape that would stop me blundering into something subtle wouldn't go amis. Not all damage is deliberate I guess!

As has already been mentioned you cannot stop deliberate vandalism but the odd visual clue to a responsible but clumsy beginner I think is a good idea.

OBVIOUSLY I'm not suggesting there should be a big yellow line down the middle for me to follow!!! 

 

[graham]

Chris:

The morons who threw mud about didn't ask permission from the rest of us before they did it.

So, what makes you feel obliged to ask permission from us here to lay down a short length of tape, epsecially as you are the guy with others who has made an effort to clean the place up? Those who don't want to see tape everywhere perhaps should compensate for this reluctance for taping and get down there every six months with water sprays etc.

If you have already made an effort to clean the place up, and want to indicate to the majority of careful cavers where it is acceptable to walk, then do it. Don't ask permission.

Peter, there is a long and honourable tradition of "things" being placed in Swildons for various reasons and then being removed by others who objected. if there is no consensus on this and if it is not actually carried out at the behest of Mr Main, then the actions will be controversial & someone will undo the work.

 

[Peter Burgess]

So if Chris asks Mr Main if it is OK, and gets permission, then nobody else has a leg to stand on?

 

[Peter Burgess]

Would anyone behave any differently, if all along the tape was written "placed here with the permission of Mr Main. Please do not remove or disturb this tape."

Being realistic, although Mr Mains consent might be important, any caver who doesn't respect tapes is going to ignore it or remove it regardless. Those who do respect tapes, will understand why it is there, and, perhaps whatever is being protected might stay clean for a bit longer than might otherwise be the case.

Then it's out with the mops, buckets and sprays again.

 

[paul]

Just stick some bloody tape down - we do it all over the place in many different caves, have been doing it for years and it seems to work.

But check with the DCA first - up in the Peak District the usual glaring red/white plastic tape has been superseded by thin orange nylon cord which, as mentioned by a previous post, is held off the floor using small metal pegs where no suitable rock is available to tie it to.

It causes much less visual pollution than the red/white tape and still marks out the path to take.

Sure, it doesn't prevent damage by the pillocks you have described but if you wish to delineate the best route to take for thise who will take notice, it's worth considering.

 

[graham]

Just stick some bloody tape down - we do it all over the place in many different caves, have been doing it for years and it seems to work.

But check with the DCA first - up in the Peak District the usual glaring red/white plastic tape has been superseded by thin orange nylon cord which, as mentioned by a previous post, is held off the floor using small metal pegs where no suitable rock is available to tie it to.

It causes much less visual pollution than the red/white tape and still marks out the path to take.

Sure, it doesn't prevent damage by the pillocks you have described but if you wish to delineate the best route to take for thise who will take notice, it's worth considering.

Another problem with the red & white stuff isd that the red dye leaches out and can discolour the cave around it. Bet someone would be really popular if they dyed the cave red whilst acting "independantly".

 

[caverholic]

One option would be to destroy the dams at the mud sump.
Then people wouldn't have a reason to go up there.
Bit drastic though.

I don't see why it shouldn't be taped, it makes it slightly more blatantly obvious to morons that there are things people want to protect and look after.

 

[cap n chris]

One option would be to destroy the dams at the mud sump.
Then people wouldn't have a reason to go up there.
Bit drastic though.

Fundamental flaw in this (mad) plan!.....

People would have to go to the mud sumps to discover that there was no way of getting through and then concluding that they shouldn't have bothered going to the mud sumps in the first place. i.e. destroying the way on will not stop people from travelling there; consequently there would be no conservation benefit whatsoever from engaging in this madcap idea. Also it would greatly annoy a large number of cavers - if the perpetrator was ever discovered they would be in deep sh*ite, putting it mildly.

Please be aware that the recent events in Swildon's Hole have resulted in earnest debate about access restrictions; any further activities by "persons unknown" could have unwelcome consequences.

 

[cap n chris]

Another problem with the red & white stuff isd that the red dye leaches out and can discolour the cave around it. Bet someone would be really popular if they dyed the cave red whilst acting "independantly".

Well reminded, Graham. Although you and I (and many others) know about this problem with red/white tape, it's always worth reiterating it for the benefit of anyone who is unaware of this unfortunate characteristic. Bright orange tape rules!

 

[Hughie]

Please be aware that the recent events in Swildon's Hole have resulted in earnest debate about access restrictions; any further activities by "persons unknown" could have unwelcome consequences.

On whose behalf, Cap'n? Swildons specific, or generally?

 

[cap n chris]

Earnest debate = talk = unfounded gossip = hot air = might as well ignore it = non-topic = forget it.

 

[Hughie]

I wouldn't have thought that "unwelcome consequences" brought about by the activities of persons unknown are insignificant (ie "forget it").

Feel free to pm me. (Going digging now but will be back on later).

 

[anfieldman]

Anfield Man, perhaps you aren't really interested in anybody Else's opinion when you finish your post with
" I would be interested in others views on this. If you are the sort of caver who wants to keep our caves looking good then you will not mind this"

I find the assumption that not liking gates makes you less conservation minded a little unfair to say the least

Ok, perhaps I did not phrase this quite correctly, what I meant was if you are the sort of caver who likes to break formations or throw mud over them or get pissed and stoned whilst caving then you will obviously not want them to be gated and controlled by sensible people.
I appreciate that gates are unsightly but something has to be done. I was trying to open the conversation up a bit on how to control these idiots.

 

[cap n chris]

I was trying to open the conversation up a bit on how to control these idiots.

... erm, I suppose you could shoot them, although I suspect that in our over-regulated nanny state this is possibly illegal nowadays (perhaps someone could check and report back).