Temperature of cave air and water in the UK

[Bob Mehew]

I am after a quotable source of typical air and water temperatures in UK caves.  I have found two threads but neither provide a source.  I have found several reports by Roger Stenner et al on water temperatures for GB, St Cuthberts and Swildons but nothing for air temperatures.  Any suggestions? 

 

[bograt]

Did any of T.D.F's students record this in any of their theses? thinking particularly of Noel Christopher back in '70's Derbyshire, but not sure.

 

[paul]

This thread: http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=4646.0 was a previous discussion on the topic which may be of use.

 

[crickleymal]

I was talking to the owner of Whittington Stone Mine (alright quarry) last summer and he was commenting on the lovely cool draft that flowed out and could be felt in the valley below about 100 yards away. He was wondering whether cave temperatures could be monitored to provide a log of global warming (or not as the case may be! Not wishing to kick that argument off)

 

[NigelG]

It's a thought, as I've always been led to believe the air temperature in caves and mines is fairly stable around their localities' mean annual temperature, or at least does not vary as rapidly as that outside.

The first port of call would be a comparative study in a selection of sites in different areas to assess that rule-of-thumb's validity. If it proves a fair rule then you'd need to compare mean temperatures of cave and external air over a goodly number of years to gain any sort of sound footing for the investigation.

 

[bograt]

Does anyone know if show caves moniter temperatures?

 

[Roger W]

I have an old guide book to Kent's Cavern in Torquay by Clive Pemberton.  It's copyrighted 1950, but the "Time Chart of World Evolution" in the back goes all the way from 20,000 million years ago to AD 1960....

On the very first page inside the front cover, it says "The temperature within the cavern is constant, winter and summer, at 52 degrees F."

Any help?

 

[Bob Mehew]

Thanks for the comments.  There are two previous treads (the other being http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=13024.0 ) which cover air temperature but both have no quotable references.  I have found on an internet search Theoretical and Applied Climatology, 1991, Volume 44, Issue 1, pp 65-73; "Inter-relationships between cave and outside air temperatures" P. A. Smithson.  That states "Its value of 7?C is close to the mean annual temperature recorded at a standard climatological station nearby" but I can't get sight of the original article to read the whole paper.  7C is different from the suggested range in the threads of between 10C and 12C.  So perhaps we do have a wider range than currently thought of.  Water temperatures are a bit more intriguing but the only quotable data I have is for Mendip caves where data ranges between 9C and 11C mean temperature (though the maximum value was 17C).

I vaguely recall that one can deduce temperature from oxygen isotope ratios.  But would that then reflect air or water or rock temperature for any deductions from stal samples?

The topic is looking like a potential final year / MSc project to me.

 

[Alex]

A big factor with water and air temperature is how close the water in the cave is to the surface, i.e. does it spend a long time underground before it reaches the cave where you access it or does it run in straight from the surface.

I know that in OSB, its a complete contrast depending on when you visit it. I always used to think of it as a cold cave. However one hot day in the summer it was a pleasure to stand in the waterfall under the first pitch you get a warm draft from the water all the way down the first half of the cave.  I would guess the water temperature was high teens at least.  The water in that cave is only underground for 5 minutes by the time you reach it.

In winter of course it is a whole different storey were both the water and air temperature would be far lower as the draft the main contributing factor in that cave would be created from cold water.

Standing water tends to be the same all year as it has spent a long time underground and has taken on the temperature of the surrounding cave. Places like Nent head mines always has cold water.

 

[graham]

Does anyone know if show caves moniter temperatures?

I know of a number of European and American ones that certainly do, but I am not aware of this happening at any British ones.

 

[graham]

Water temperatures are a bit more intriguing but the only quotable data I have is for Mendip caves where data ranges between 9C and 11C mean temperature (though the maximum value was 17C).

I remember Trat stating that Irish (Co. Clare) water was consistently warmer that Mendip water, so it would be worth searching back through papers in UBSS proc to see who was doing the measuring. I'm pretty sure that there is something the Caves of North West Tratman about this, but being knackered having just got back from France I don't have the energy to pick my copy off the shelf.

I vaguely recall that one can deduce temperature from oxygen isotope ratios.  But would that then reflect air or water or rock temperature for any deductions from stal samples?

Although one might expect the ratio to reflect the environment in which the reactions took place (rock/air interface) they must also reflect the nature of the supply (air), I would think, so it's probably a good proxy for air temperature fluctuations, though possibly not absolutely relatable to exact temperatures without some calibration.

The topic is looking like a potential final year / MSc project to me.

Certainly interesting enough, yes.

 

[underground]

Totally anecdotal and unscientific I know but, there are a couple of max/min thermometers hanging in the old showcave bit of Bagshawe. From my potted passing observations they haven't deviated far from 8 deg C all summer...

 

[cavermark]

Thanks for the comments.  There are two previous treads (the other being http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=13024.0 ) which cover air temperature but both have no quotable references.  I have found on an internet search Theoretical and Applied Climatology, 1991, Volume 44, Issue 1, pp 65-73; "Inter-relationships between cave and outside air temperatures" P. A. Smithson.  That states "Its value of 7?C is close to the mean annual temperature recorded at a standard climatological station nearby" but I can't get sight of the original article to read the whole paper.  7C is different from the suggested range in the threads of between 10C and 12C.  So perhaps we do have a wider range than currently thought of.  Water temperatures are a bit more intriguing but the only quotable data I have is for Mendip caves where data ranges between 9C and 11C mean temperature (though the maximum value was 17C).

I vaguely recall that one can deduce temperature from oxygen isotope ratios.  But would that then reflect air or water or rock temperature for any deductions from stal samples?

The topic is looking like a potential final year / MSc project to me.

Peter Smithson is a lecturer in the Sheffield University Geography department (and a nice chap). I've P.M'd his email address

 

[Smithers]

I did my undergrad dissertation on cave temperature in Ingleborough Show Cave (tourist and non-tourist areas).  I'll see if I can dig out some of the data later on today.  Alternatively, you could contact Alan Speight at YSS, as there's a copy in their library.

Chris