The Three Counties Ultimate Through Trip from Large Pot through to Top Sink? ?

[Ian P]

As mentioned by Badlad on the Ireby-Rift connection and just seen the following from the DCA minutes:

?The Three Counties Ultimate Through Trip from Large Pot through to Top Sink was discussed, with a view to BCA branding the event and providing funding towards it. Council voted to approve the proposal in principle but a more detailed plan is required to council.?

Does anyone have any details? 

Would be really interested in hearing about the logistics involved.

The ?pool? of prospective suitors must surely be very small ??

I would imagine alot of stars would need to align for this to come off ??

Ian

 

[Badlad]

Sump wise the biggee is Lost Johns to Pip.  With the connection of the Alcove sump from Shuttleworth into the 'easier' part of the LJs sump this is likely to be the chosen route.  So about a Km to Shuttleworth and then upstream to the Pip turnoff and Poohs Revenge.  A long way round but the direct route was never completed as a traverse and described by Yeadon as bloody awful diving in soup amongst a maze of roof pendants.  The Notts Ireby sumps are probably fairly tame in comparison.  The bigger test I think is through the 'above water' Rift Ireby connection which needs reopening for fat diving lads  and a good window of weather to keep it open.  It was described in the thread mentioned above as like 'being buried alive whilst drowning at the same time'.  Nice.  There is also a couple of really tasty squeezes on the Rift side.  Never the less for a couple of highly competent divers and a trusted support team it is only a matter of time before it it done.

Then, of course, someone will connect Aygill into the system or find a Kingsdale entrance to the Eastern Front and it'll need  doing all over again 

 

[Brains]

By the time I am ready to try it had better be dug out to a corridor with a travelator, until then I shall doff my cap and say "awesome trip"

 

[Badlad]

Back again.  Which way do you do it.  Large to Top, Top to large??  Also you could claim that Bull Pot of the Witches is the more classic trip than Top Sinks.  Further north and another sump involved.

Large is highest so perhaps start there and a fairly tough trip down into Rift through the Mousehole etc.  Then the Temple of Doom, Pussy Cat choke and the Kendal extensions through to the Rift Ireby connection mentioned above.  Ireby 1 & 2 sumps to dive, down the pitch in Notts and through the Notts sump to Notts 2 streamway for a bit of relief. Notts connection to Lost Johns, down Lyle Caverns to the Master cave and sump.  Swim to Shuttleworth and then to Pip and a simple trog all the long, long way - well it will feel it by then through Easegill to Top Sinks.

Out in time for tea and medals.

 

[JoshW]

As mentioned by Badlad on the Ireby-Rift connection and just seen the following from the DCA minutes:

?The Three Counties Ultimate Through Trip from Large Pot through to Top Sink was discussed, with a view to BCA branding the event and providing funding towards it. Council voted to approve the proposal in principle but a more detailed plan is required to council.?

Does anyone have any details? 

Would be really interested in hearing about the logistics involved.

The ?pool? of prospective suitors must surely be very small ??

I would imagine alot of stars would need to align for this to come off ??

Ian

This was a proposal suggested by the new chair Russell.

To summarise:
- the initial plan was to do this in 2021, as a big headline maker and enthusing people back into caving plus encouraging more into it. Many on council thought this too early because of a) the covid risk of further travel/meeting disruptions and b) the amount of time required to fully plan the logistics.
- the proposal suggested that the BCA funds the project, with any leftover kit being donated to y and d to be distributed to appropriate sources. Some were unhappy with BCA funds being used for this purpose for various reasons: 1) it sets a dangerous precedent that bca should be funding further trips like this, 2) clubs/members taking part would have their own kit (ropes/metalwork) and therefore why was new stuff needed, 3) some (myself included) expressed concern that the proposal in its current format, lacked a thorough enough plan as to how the money spent would benefit the BCA membership as a whole.
- the proposal was amended before voting on and council asked Russell to come back with a plan that would answer the above concerns, but council in principle, weren?t against a three counties through trip being organised in association with the BCA.

Having spoken to Russell since, I understand that the project has been pushed back to 2022, and as such I would expect a proposal to come forwards to council later this year, but there are more pressing issues to be sorted first.

 

[Badlad]

I can't help but think BCA should be concentrating on its core job of administrating British Caving.  There have been so many problems in recent years, many of which they still need to sort out.  Where is the sense in BCA involvement in a project such as this?  I'm at a loss to see the point.  Now Russell has sown the seed leave it to those with the ability.

 

[2xw]

Which core administrative duties do you think we are failing in and what specific actions would you take to fix them?

And which core administrative duties are currently so derelict that they require the devoted energies of 30 people such that nothing else can be attended to?

 

[JoshW]

I don?t think you?re alone there Badlad, and to clarify I don?t think it?s necessarily going to get in the way of other BCA actions. As I understand it there is a seperate team ?planning? and putting forwards a new proposal.

I can see that there are some benefits it could have to British caving, it could encourage people into caving, but this would need a full media campaign planned and prepared in advance, as well as pre-preparing events that would allow those interested to get caving. This is not a small amount of work, and I think that pushing back to 2022 would be the correct decision.

Something worth bearing in mind is that the funding/project has not yet been approved, and if you have strong feelings either way about it, I urge you to talk to one of the following: your regional council, an individual/group representative (dependent on if you?re DIM/CIM - I think), or anyone in council who you feel represents your interests. Contact details for council members are on the following page, and I hope that the BCA can continue its transparency improvements by being more contactable and able to represent its members:
https://british-caving.org.uk/about-bca/bca-council/

I note that the individual/group reps do no have contact details on there, but some hold multiple roles (myself included), and at least some are very active on this forum

 

[Pegasus]

BCA could communicate with its members more. 

Is membership renewal going well?  If yes, great spread the good news, if not encouraging folks to renew would be a good idea.

Have seen elsewhere offers of yoga via zoom for CHECC funded by BCA.  Brilliant idea, tell cavers, good PR for BCA as anything to support student caving is excellent.  I for one would be interested, what about for non student cavers?  Great way for BCA to provide something of value to cavers whilst we're in lockdown.

More caving news that could be publicised more widely: GPF funding applications close on the 28th of February.

What about the newsletter?

Is anything going on in the background about the problems student caving clubs must surely have had recruiting new members?  Not sure what but folks might have some ideas, a worry for some clubs I'm sure 

Obviously, this has been a tough time for many and not being able to go caving will have affected different people in different ways.  The mood seems to be turning more optimistic in the country, now would be a good time for some positive messaging from BCA - just to make cavers feel better and raise a smile if nothing else.

Cheers, Jane 

 

[Pete K]

I note that the individual/group reps do no have contact details on there, but some hold multiple roles (myself included), and at least some are very active on this forum

As one of the BCA Individual Member reps I'm certainly all ears for how cavers feel about BCA supporting this venture. The vote to support this in principal pending more information is not something that really commits BCA to anything, and the alternative was to completely reject it.
I'm personally glad to hear it looks like it is being pushed back to 2022 as I did have some concerns about such an undertaking during a time when we're all being asked to be careful and risk averse. I'm keen to learn how cavers here and the organisers feel the costs to BCA might translate to benefits for the caving community.
This rep is listening.

 

[JoshW]

BCA could communicate with its members more. 

This is something being worked on. As of last year there is a new p and I officer, and he?s been working on improving comms alongside ari with It and things are certainly moving in the right direction.

Is membership renewal going well?  If yes, great spread the good news, if not encouraging folks to renew would be a good idea.

Happy to message you separately about this one, but don?t feel in a place to share it publicly

Have seen elsewhere offers of yoga via zoom for CHECC funded by BCA.  Brilliant idea, tell cavers, good PR for BCA as anything to support student caving is excellent.  I for one would be interested, what about for non student cavers?  Great way for BCA to provide something of value to cavers whilst we're in lockdown.

Zoom yoga will be on YouTube post session for the wider BCA membership, I?ve got a post prepared to be published to advertise this, and show the good work put in by Rob Watson of CHECC to get this arranged.

More caving news that could be publicised more widely: GPF funding applications close on the 28th of February.

I presume that GPF handle their own comms? Also not entirely sure how many people are expecting expeds to be running this year, very difficult to plan.

What about the newsletter?

Rather than fill the newsletter with rubbish, a decision was (in my opinion) rightly made to wait until there is reasonable content to fill it with. I?ve got someone drafting an article to go into the next one

Is anything going on in the background about the problems student caving clubs must surely have had recruiting new members?  Not sure what but folks might have some ideas, a worry for some clubs I'm sure 

I?m working alongside CHECC to put plans in place, as I was in previous lockdowns lifting. I post on here regularly and have posted asking for ideas to be sent my way (thanks for front paging it for me  ). My contact details are on the bca website if needed, or pm me here if you have ideas. I am chairing a youth and development meeting this week where further ideas will be banded around and plans developed.

Obviously, this has been a tough time for many and not being able to go caving will have affected different people in different ways.  The mood seems to be turning more optimistic in the country, now would be a good time for some positive messaging from BCA - just to make cavers feel better and raise a smile if nothing else.

This loops it nicely back on topic, I really think this is what Russell wanted this three counties project to be

 

[Speleotron]

If Kingsdale was connected to the 3 counties system would the longest trip be Top Sink to Vespers?

 

[Duck ditch]

I would have thought Brown Hills. 
A fantastic project.  Good luck to all.  I could bring a bottle of bubbly if that helps 

 

[Alex]

Well whatever happens, if anyone wants me to lug some bottles etc through the "dry" sections, and presuming I am fit enough after all these lockdowns, then count me in.

 

[kay]

I note that the individual/group reps do no have contact details on there, but some hold multiple roles (myself included), and at least some are very active on this forum

Isn?t it a fundamental requirement of a representative that they be readily contactable by those they represent? I don?t think hoping they also hold a contactable role is quite enough.  Is there any reason why group and individual reps shouldn?t have a BCA email address in the same way as the officers? Apologies if I?m missing something and their contact details are elsewhere on the site.

 

[Groundhog]

I think this is a fantastic plan and as an individual BCA member I would have no problem with them supplying some funding. I can't see this amounting to much as all the kit must already be available.
Obviously the logistics will be very complicated. Will a camp be necessary? I would have thought so. If so where? I may be a bit too far over the hill to offer any support but who knows 
It would be nice if the expedition could be filmed. What a great promotional project for caving that would be! 

 

[Ed W]

I'm with Groundhog.  What better way to inspire and encourage British cavers after the lockdown than to work together on a fabulous project such as this.  As for BCA this would demonstrate to the membership that this is an organisation that can achieve things after the recent internal strife.

I am old enough to remember the "Underground Eiger" documenting the first dive between Kingsdale Master Cave and Keld Head and the impact it had at the time.  This, along with my grandfather's stories of exploring Long Churn in the 1920s, was a major reason I took up caving.

To my mind this deserves the full support of the BCA.

 

[JoshW]

I note that the individual/group reps do no have contact details on there, but some hold multiple roles (myself included), and at least some are very active on this forum

Isn?t it a fundamental requirement of a representative that they be readily contactable by those they represent? I don?t think hoping they also hold a contactable role is quite enough.  Is there any reason why group and individual reps shouldn?t have a BCA email address in the same way as the officers? Apologies if I?m missing something and their contact details are elsewhere on the site.

Hi Kay,

I agree entirely, and have been mulling over possible ways to solve this. With there being 4 people for each role, it?s whether you?d want an email for each person or one email address that forwards to all four.

I?m also considering setting up a thread on here that introduces each rep and how to contact them

 

[Ed]

In reply to Ed W - I was just thinking this needs filming as per one of Sid's films.

If filmed well it could be one one for Banff nit just Kendal film festival

 

[JoshW]

In reply to Ed W - I was just thinking this needs filming as per one of Sid's films.

If filmed well it could be one one for Banff nit just Kendal film festival

This is exactly the kinds of things that have been mentioned and I?m sure Russell and the group will come back to council with.

It is very early stages in the planning of this, and so I think it?s easy to get overexcited in either direction for it.