Tier 4 areas

[Roger W]

"I know someone who went into work despite his wife having a positive covid test. He only admitted his contact after an hour long meeting with two other people. He has now tested positive.  What an arsehole." - Crickleymal.

Anal orifice indeed!

What can one say, though?  The whole point of the tier system, lockdowns and whatever is to try and stop the virus spreading and people being infected.  But instead of saying "How can I try and keep myself and others as safe as possible?" a lot of folk seem to be saying "How much can I possibly get away with?"

 

[aardgoose]

I'm not sure where this idea that the tiers are only guidance comes from. Tiers 1 - 3 were defined in legislation when they were introduced, and tier 4 added via amendments to the existing legislation more recently:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1611/pdfs/uksi_20201611_en.pdf

The resulting legislation is at https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1374/contents

Be careful when reading guidance, it isn't always the same as the legislation, and in some cases is tighter, but not always.

 

[al]

Travel restrictions into and out of tiers applies to both tiers 3 and 4. I know that in tier-3 advice against non-essential travel is qualified with a "should", rather than a "must" (which some people interpret as "it's OK to do it"), but there are still risks. If more people do it, it encourages more people to do it, which, in turn, increases the probability of virus transmission.

But the risks are not only to health. If you check out Coniston Mountain Rescue Team's face book page https://www.facebook.com/ConistonMountainRescueTeam, they posted a plea on 20/12/2020 at 09:11 asking people from other tiers 3 and 4 not to come to the Lakes (Cumbria were T3 at the time) and stating that the Police had already fined some of their rescuees (teams operate under Police control, and names and addresses are always taken).

 

[mikem]

I can't see any mention of travel in those legislation links (except for an exemption). There is a requirement to not leave home IN A TIER 4 AREA, with provisos for allowable reasons.

 

[aardgoose]

That's my reading, the definition of public place is quite restrictive too, and would exclude most if not all caves.

The restrictions/exceptions don't alter depending on the tier a destination is in either. So you can't say I'll go from a tier 4 area to do something in a tier 2 area where it is allowed for people in that area. Driving to a different area for a pub lunch is not allowed.

Again the government comms is really poor, and they don't link to the legislation from the guidance.

 

[PeteHall]

the definition of public place is quite restrictive too, and would exclude most if not all caves.

Really? Based on what?

From Gov.uk

Public outdoor places include:

? parks, beaches, countryside accessible to the public, forests
? public gardens (whether or not you pay to enter them)
? allotments
? the grounds of a heritage site
? outdoor sports courts and facilities
? playgrounds

Note the word 'include', not 'limited to'.

 

[PeteHall]

I'm sure many people will have seen this already, but this is an interesting resource showing weekly recorded case numbers (relative and absolute) across England and Wales, including change from previous week.

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map

There appears to be no correlation between recorded cases and tiers at a local level in my area...

 

[RobinGriffiths]

I think a 2 month 'circuit breaker' - euphemism for total lockdown  will be announced, either tomorrow, or if Part Time Prime Minister, full time clown Boris (how the f*** did he become prime minister), and his oily acolyte, Gove are prevaricating,  on Friday.

 

[mikem]

Tiers are not just based on total numbers, but on percentage change & how many ICU beds are still available in your area (amongst other things).

 

[Alex]

Tiers are just a bad idea for all the reasons listed above, it should be the same regulations throughout the country.
1) it's fairer if everyone follows the same rules.
2) it will stop people trying to cheat the system.
3) It will make things clearer.
4) It might actually work unlike the local tier which is always going to be closing the gate after the horse has bolted, this local tier system does not work and I said so from day 1 of the pandemic, when France tried it after the initial infection in that village as the virus had already left that village.

Lock-down or not, the rules need to be consistent, ideally across the whole of the UK.

 

[gingerlycolors]

Rules do need to be consistent across England, Wales and Scotland to stop people from nipping across borders to cheat the rules.  However I do wonder how long this is going to go on for?  How many more businesses are going to go to the wall?  What about the mental wellbeing of people affected by constant lockdowns?  And ultimately how will the government finance the NHS if the country goes bankrupt?  We do need another lockdown now and get the vaccine rolled out but I think that it is time for an ultimatum with lockdowns, travel restrictions and closures of non-essential businesses and hospitality to end by Easter because people will no longer comply once the clocks go forward, the evenings get lighter and the weather starts warming up.

 

[Speleofish]

There are (very approximately) 25 million people over 50 in the UK who need vaccinating. If the NHS can manage its (hugely ambitious) target of 2 million vaccinations/week, that would mean the vulnerable population should have received their first dose by the end of March and should have achieved decent levels of immunity within 3-4 weeks (ie by the end of April), at which point the problem will start to resolve and restrictions may start to be eased. This depends on the virus not changing dramatically and, obviously, a slower roll-out will delay things dramatically.

If the main aim of the restrictions is to defend the NHS and in particular, intensive care capacity, the most important age group will be those aged between 50 and 70 as these represent the bulk of Covid ICU admissions (average age of all ICU cases in the first wave was just under 60 years). The early phase of vaccination should have a significant effect on mortality but a very limited effect on ICU bed utilisation.

As Easter is on 4th April, the last few weeks f'lockdown' may be a  little tense.

 

[JohnMCooper]

Let's see what Boris has to say at 8pm this evening

 

[aardgoose]

Note the word 'include', not 'limited to'.

It's difficult to see how private land would be determined to be "public".

 

[aardgoose]

It will be come academic very shortly anyway, it was fairly obvious the new tiers were going to be ineffective, given that cases were rising in the SE and London during the last semi-lockdown, and the government is finally acknowledging that they have failed. A repeated pattern of delayed action and premature relaxation.  Learning doesn't seem to be a feature.

In other news, it is reported that two walkers have been fined for travelling from Oban to Glen Coe to go walking (they required rescuing).

 

[darren]

the definition of public place is quite restrictive too, and would exclude most if not all caves.

Really? Based on what?

From Gov.uk

Public outdoor places include:

? parks, beaches, countryside accessible to the public, forests
? public gardens (whether or not you pay to enter them)
? allotments
? the grounds of a heritage site
? outdoor sports courts and facilities
? playgrounds

Note the word 'include', not 'limited to'.

As I'm sure we all know these laws are created using Statutory Instruments rather than primary legislation.

The link to the Statutory Instrument is

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1611/made

Schedule 3A para 4 states

(4) A place is a public outdoor place for the purposes of this paragraph if it is a public outdoor place other than a fairground or funfair and?

(a)no payment is required by any member of the public to access that place, or
(b)the place falls within one of the following categories?
(i)outdoor sportsgrounds or sports facilities,
(ii)botanical gardens,
(iii)gardens or grounds of a castle, stately home, historic house or other heritage site.

I know we are all playing top trumps with our sources of information. Can anyone top this? a link must be included.

 

[Alex]

Wish I was furloughed, because then I would have time and would happily volunteer to stick needles in people's arms if it got us out of this faster.

 

[PeteHall]

It's difficult to see how private land would be determined to be "public".

Most places on the list of inclusions for "public outdoor places" are private land, accessible to the public.

? parks - often private land
? beaches - often private land
? countryside accessible to the public, - usually private land
? forests - usually private land
? public gardens (whether or not you pay to enter them) - usually private land
? allotments - usually private land
? the grounds of a heritage site - usually private land
? outdoor sports courts and facilities - often private land
? playgrounds

As I'm sure we all know these laws are created using Statutory Instruments rather than primary legislation.

The link to the Statutory Instrument is

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1611/made

Schedule 3A para 4 states

(4) A place is a public outdoor place for the purposes of this paragraph if it is a public outdoor place other than a fairground or funfair and?

(a)no payment is required by any member of the public to access that place, or
(b)the place falls within one of the following categories?
(i)outdoor sportsgrounds or sports facilities,
(ii)botanical gardens,
(iii)gardens or grounds of a castle, stately home, historic house or other heritage site.

I know we are all playing top trumps with our sources of information. Can anyone top this? a link must be included.

So if it is a public place, but you need to pay, it doesn't count as a public place within this legislation, unless it is a sports ground, botanical garden or garden of a stately home. Not sure this affects many caves.

It will be come academic very shortly anyway

You may well be right there...

 

[aardgoose]

The legislation has already been referenced previously ....

On the private land, "accessible to the public" is a qualifying requirement.

I don't think the regulations were written with all eventualities in mind and certainly not with people intent on finding some semantic loophole to evade the intention of the regulations. Although the guidance is sometimes stricter than the legislation, it signals the intention. The CPS guidance issued to the police also referenced previously is useful.

More damage has been done by constantly goals/changing rules/slogans and campaigns which were counter productive: "Eat out etc". "Get back to the office (or else your job will be outsourced as some of the press helpfully added)".  Business Schools will probably be using the UK Government's PR has a 'how not to do things' case study.  It's what you get when 'journalists' become politicians.

Latest reports are that England wide tier 4 is to be announced + schools closed + no outdoor team games, so there won't be an issue of travelling between tiers to worry about.

 

[crickleymal]

Wish I was furloughed, because then I would have time and would happily volunteer to stick needles in people's arms if it got us out of this faster.

My GP surgery sent out an email asking for volunteers to help with the upcoming vaccinations. They're only for people to help with marshalling and car parking etc. Unless you're medically trained  (I don't know if you are) then they won't let you anywhere near a needle.