Titan debate

[SamT]

Right - open forum.

(Ive just deleted a lengthy explanation/history of the titan dig but hey - Im just going to leave it up to you - we've all heard about the dig anyhow.)

As mentioned else where, following the rescue from titan last week, the diggers decided to cancel any booked trips and close the entrance shaft. ut:

Should they have done this and continue to do this :?:

(I know what starlessriver will say )

 

[bubba]

I guess if they've been entrusted with controlling acces then it's up to them.

I think that if a party stupid enough to take a novice on what is probably one of the most demanding srt trips in the UK can gain access as easily as they did, then some sort of better control is needed.

Also, if the dig is still a work in progress, then I can understand concerns about somebody being killed by rockfall. It must be very hard to know if potentially dangerous work is being carried out at the top of the shaft when you're happily bimbling about at the bottom.

I don't know what the answer is - perhaps a guide system (like we had in St Cuthbert's Swallet) needs to be in place for a while?

 

[Huw Groucutt]

Its not really fair to stop other experienced parties going there cos one party which stupidly took a novice. Surely a one off?

Maybe some kind of leader system...but that does restrict peoples options and that kind of thing is more for where there are formations etc.

 

[bubba]

I agree, it would be restrictive, but then it's better than no access at all.

Anyone know what the liability situation is for "leader trips" - if somebody dies on a guided trip, is the guide/leader considered at fault?

 

[SamT]

what if the diggers are too busy digging the western passage choke (from the bottom of the entrance shaft) and dont want to have to guide punters in and out of titan every sunday.

 

[SamT]

off to the pub :drink:

 

[bubba]

Well yeah, like I say, I suppose the ball is in their court - just thinking of possible solutions.

It's possible that there's people who are willing to guide who aren't on the digging crew?

Maybe we'll all have to wait until the digging is finished...

I hope the people responsible for taking a beginner into the place will think again next time :evil:

 

[Stu]

i can understand a closure because it's still an active dig.

should it be managed ie leader system because of its size and/or difficulty? i dont think it should.
i have a theory, which people can shoot down because its just an idea. is the problem that derbyshire doesnt have any really big pitched caves so the potential for parochial (sp?) cavers who dont go to other regions that often, having a nightmare becomes more likely? if the digs were completed, would the same attitude be taken in yorkshire, where big is normal? or is it the prestige of it being the biggest and so it needs monitoring or protecting (or should that be certain people protected from it?)?

leader schemes are great news for caves with prettys. but should such a scheme be adopted because a cave is technically challenging. what message does that send to "outsiders"? some cavers just cant be allowed to make decisions for themselves so they all need regulating!

who knows? i certainly dont. just my twopence!

 

[bubba]

I don't like the idea of leaders / guides either but maybe that's better than never having access to the top entrance at all?

Who knows what the Titan team will decide, if anything.... :?

 

[SamT]

is the problem that derbyshire doesnt have any really big pitched caves so the potential for parochial cavers who dont go to other regions that often, having a nightmare becomes more likely?

I disagree about big pitches in derbyshire, in fact in general. Titan is actually quite simple, Y hang, free hang to ledge (event horizon) keep abbing to lip, Y hang, free to floor. In many ways, not too dissimialar to Rowter Hole or the engine shaft at knotlow. I would say theres more potential for getting all tangled up in nettle,oxlow,maskill knotlow climbing shaft not to mention JH
Being huge doesn't necessarily make it harder/more complicated. It generally only makes communication hard due to the noise and echos etc.

Theres a thing, at what point did JH stop being a dig (remember there were two) the speedwell connection then the Far Sump connection) and become a 'public' entrance into speedwell/peak.

 

[Stu]

sam, i agree totally in what you say. it wasnt clear that i meant it was a perceived hazard. i think we probably agree there shouldnt be a leader system?

 

[bubba]

Being huge doesn't necessarily make it harder/more complicated. It generally only makes communication hard due to the noise and echos etc.

You've got radios now!

 

[SamT]

i think we probably agree there shouldnt be a leader system?

Im sitting on the fence for this debate Im afraid. (and possibly playing devils advocate :twisted: )

Just interested in canvasing opinion from a wider audience. :argue:

 

[Brendan]

re liability situation for leader trips
Thats partly what 3rd party insurance is for - i.e. the cover given by DCA etc.

As to Titan, I think part of the problem is that it is such a tempting bit of cave to go to. Now the top is open almost anyone can manage to get there, as opposed to doing the trip down Peak/JH, which would be beyond many people. While I agree that nettle/maskhill could be a worse place to have a problem in terms of rescue, I don't much fancy getting strung up 70m from the floor even if it is an easy, although long, pitch. :uhoh:

Anyway, if they are still digging the top I think it is fair enough to close the entrance shaft, especially if some idiot thinks it is a good place to take an SRT novice. I wouldn't fancy doing the pitch knowing that boulders may come whizzing past, let alone if it was my first trip!!

 

[mudmonkey]

Another idea would be to put a locked lid on the entrance with an OFD-style opens-from-inside gate on it. Trouble is it neccessitates fixed ropes - but Block Hall has those already.

Doesn't stop you getting clonked by a passing rock but I guess with the Titan team controlling JH and talking to the Peak Cavern people they could make sure people know when it's NOT a good idea to be in Titan.

Now, who likes prussiking? :freak:

Steve

 

[Huw Groucutt]

Can't they just open in when they are not digging. They can't be digging every day surely, or even every sat and sun! After doing something like that its fair to expect a few tourist trips.

Mudmonkey - which OFD entrance do you mean? there are at least 3.5 of em (3 if SWCC ask....). 1 has a leader system, whilst cwm dwr and top are open to clubs who have applied for a permit.

 

[mudmonkey]

I meant the style of gate they use on a few cave entrances around the place - OFD Top Entrance probably best known (I haven't used the other OFD entrances but assume they have similar gates?) - so you can open the gate from inside without a key. The idea has major practical problems - JH is not ideal (!) for pull-throughs, and falling rocks tend not to be good for fixed ropes, fixed ropes are expensive to install and need maintennance, but it may be a way on.

Steve

 

[Huw Groucutt]

I- so you can open the gate from inside without a key.

Ah right, are not virtually all cave gates like that? All but one i can think of in S.Wales can be opened from the inside without a key.

 

[Andy]

I suppose that it's still their dig and in many ways their enterance at that. If the diggers aren't happy then it's thier perrogative to close and open the lid at will, especially seeing as some groups obviously can't be trusted to handle themselves competently. After all, JH is still open (with permit) and it's not a long hike from the bottom of Leviathan to the boulder piles at the foot of Titan if you know the way. I'd say the only issue with this depends on whether the choke has been stabalised since (as i remember it) there was some quite nasty hanging-death waiting to catch out the unwary

 

[Andy Sparrow]

What's the story with this rescue then?