topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism

[sinker]

There's some rather simplistic conclusions being made here

YES, I'M GENERALISING.

about litter and national pride for example, which are about as unrelated as one could get.

DISAGREE, ITS A PERFECT EXAMPLE

I don't like nationalism and I don't leave litter. I don't really agree with the way the US does its business either. And I'm not remotely 'woke'. So it's a bit more complex than the cases laid out.

AGREE, AGAIN I'M GENERALISING

Isn't it even possible that the social problems here are caused more by poor education and relative poverty than a lack of national pride? The poor parts of most places in the world are full of litter, whilst the rich ones aren't.

YES, ITS A COMPLEX PROBLEM

Nowt do with national pride, just money.

UNFORTUNATELY THE TWO OFTEN GO HAND IN HAND...

I agree that we're probably the least nationalist (and racist) country in Europe, and I'm glad about that, and wouldn't want to live anywhere else as a result. But if I walked down the street seeing Union Jacks everywhere (or even worse, that bloody red cross), I would think the world had gone insane. Nationalism proposes that someone from a certain tribal group is 'better' than someone else from a different tribal group, when they're clearly not - they may have more money, but that's about it.

AGREE; NATIONALISM IS ABOUT CELEBRATING AND PROMOTING WHAT YOU HAVE WHILST LOOKING DOWN ON OTHERS.

noun
noun: nationalism; plural noun: nationalisms
identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations.

WHAT I'M PREACHING IS PATRIOTISM WHICH IS SIMPLY CELEBRATING WHAT YOU HAVE.

noun
noun: patriotism
the quality of being patriotic; devotion to and vigorous support for one's country.

That's hardly good for the collective in the long term. The Scottish independence campaign, for example is a classic example of small-minded parochialism overriding common sense and economic stability. And it will create an equivalent English campaign of vehemence as its natural bedfellow. And we really don't need that.

TOTALLY AGREE; I'M A PATRIOTIC WELSHMAN (PLEIDIOL WYF I'M GWLAD  ) BUT THE LAST THING WALES OR SCOTLAND NEEDS IS INDEPENDANCE; IT WOULD PUT US BACK IN THE STONE AGE.

We are also 'ruled' by a 'royal' family who seem to be pretty corrupt now, when examined with a clear head, and were always corrupt in the past.

WE ARE NOT RULED BY THEM; THEY ARE FIGUREHEADS AND A HEAD OF STATE.

The peoples of the world are ideally coming together to solve our collective problems better, not splitting apart into a million Trumptons.

I do accept though that it was The Firebird Suite and not Rite of Spring

 

[sinker]

I hate the kind of fake patriotism that involves waving flags

WHY IS IT FAKE? BECAUSE ITS A PLASTIC FLAG ON A PLASTIC STICK?

and people feeling superior to those from other countries or races

THAT'S NATIONALISM AND RACISM, NOT PATRIOTISM; REFER YOU TO MY RESPONSE TO PWHOLE

while putting nothing back into their community or wider country. I also hate the way many British people behave in other countries. This actually makes me ashamed of being British or rather being associated with such people.

NOT ALL BRITISH PEOPLE ARE LIKE THAT; YES IN BENIDORM I WOULD PROBABLY START SPEAKING NORWEGIAN, FRENCH OR WELSH TO AVOID ASSOCIATION 


If people are willing to contribute something positive to the community without financial reward or seeking recognition then that does make me feel proud.

ME TOO 

I'm lucky enough to know people who do this and they seem to be able to do this without feeling smug or superior to others or waving flags.

Perhaps citizenship should be earned by what you do for others rather than where you are born.

OR WHAT YOU DO FOR YOUR COUNTRY? PATRIOTISM = CITIZENSHIP.

 

[Mrs Trellis]

There are many national flags waved at the Last Night. as well as the EU one. I don't mind at all and I don't regard the person(s) waving the Irish tricolour as IRA terrorist sympathisers nor do I think they are superior to anyone else.

The Last Night is the climax of the longest and arguably the greatest music festival in the world and , of course, it's all free to hear. So some people let their metaphorical hair down - the Prommers raise large amounts for music charities  , particularly for ex-musicians now in difficulties.

Every other Prom is listened to in rapt attention with audience participation only at the behest of the performers.

In the final analysis it's just tradition - like clapping in the Radetzky March in the VPO New Year's Day concert.

Re Jerusalem - mad Blake's words are ..er.. mad but Parry's tune and Elgar's orchestration are sublime.

 

[Fishes]

Hi Sinker

What I see as fake has nothing to do with plastic flags and everything to do with attitude. I don't see people as patriotic unless they are willing to contribute to their community/country.

Philosophers have debated the patriotism and nationalism and while some regard them as separate, others see them as so intertwined that they can't be separated. For many of those I consider fake patriots then I suspect they go hand in hand.

I did say many rather than all British people and yes I have sometimes pretended not to be British. I've certainly not been or would want to go anywhere like Benidorm though.

 

[sinker]

....it's just tradition....

Summed up perfectly 

 

[crickleymal]

Being half Welsh and a touch Irish I'm more than happy to see Wales and Scotland go their separate ways. I'm fed up with the Tory jingoism that we seem to have lapsed into during and post brexit. I've no problem with patriotism but I'm seeing less and less to be patriotic about.
And as regards the terms snowflake and woke. It seems to me to be a way of getting a rise out of someone. I'm quite happy to defend my left leaning politics vigorously and physically.

 

[Oceanrower]

I'm quite happy to defend my left leaning politics vigorously and physically.

Gotta love the internet. There?s always some wannabe hard man willing to beat someone up for having a different opinion. At least, from behind a keyboard?

 

[crickleymal]

No it's nothing like that. It's just that snowflake and such get waved around so much that it really pisses me off

 

[sinker]

No it's nothing like that. It's just that snowflake and such get waved around so much that it really pisses me off

I can tell you that there is no one more "left-leaning" / socialist (with a lower-case "s"...) than me in my political view of the world but I still know a snowflake when I see one; lazy, feckless, someone who knows ALL of their rights but not their responsibilities.

OK so veering even further off-topic; if anyone has a more agreeable word than "snowflake" then I'm more than happy to adopt it.

 

[mikem]

He doesn't sound particularly nationalistic, especially by the measure of his times: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._C._Benson

 

[mikem]

& the spitting image sketch was called "Last night at the yobs": https://m.facebook.com/watch/?v=625145611772462&_rdr

But there are various other versions of Land of Hopeless Tories available...

 

[royfellows]

Seeing the direction this thread is starting to wonder reinforces what i said in my earlier post.

 

[ZombieCake]

I still know a snowflake when I see one; lazy, feckless, someone who knows ALL of their rights but not their responsibilities.

Seems about right to me.  Presumably it also includes those who get offended at everything as some sort of a hobby?

 

[tony from suffolk]

"Snowflake" as a derogatory term which originated from Trump and his crew - On Christmas Eve 2019 the Donald Trump campaign launched a website called snowflakevictory.com to give guidance to Trump?s supporters about how to deal with their ?liberal relatives? over the holiday period. It featured 12 hot-button topics (immigration, impeachment, the environment etc). So if you were someone who happened to care for the environment and believed humans were largely responsible for global warming, believed trump should be thrown in jail, thought it was wrong to separate immigrant children from their parents & chuck them in compounds, and expressed the desire to help anyone less fortunate, indeed exhibited any form of what you could regard as the Christian ethic, then they were a "Snowflake".

I confess to being one of those.

 

[sinker]

?."Snowflake" as a derogatory term which originated from Trump and his crew - On Christmas Eve 2019 the Donald Trump campaign launched a website called snowflakevictory.com....

No, sorry; in our context:

?."snowflake" was first used as an insult in 1996 novel Fight Club. "You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake. You are the same decaying organic matter as everyone, and we are all part of the same compost pile."


In an earlier, completely separate meaning and useage, that we are not concerned with here:

In Missouri in the early 1860s, a "Snowflake" was a person who was opposed to the abolition of slavery?the implication of the name being that such people valued white people over black people. The Snowflakes hoped slavery would survive the country's civil war....

Totally unconnected but I include it just for completeness.

 

[mikem]

Both uses have the intention of being derogatory to someone who opposes your view... (Ellipsis just meaning its food for thought)

 

[tony from suffolk]

No, sorry; in my context:

Fixed it for you. And there's me thinking a snowflake is frozen water, especially a feathery ice crystal, typically displaying delicate sixfold symmetry. Shame it's being misused.

 

[mikem]

Fight Club just made it popular by counter pointing its use as a metaphor for the uniqueness of each individual, he didn't use it as an insult:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/the-less-lovely-side-of-snowflake

 

[sinker]

No, sorry; in my context:

Fixed it for you. And there's me thinking a snowflake is frozen water, especially a feathery ice crystal, typically displaying delicate sixfold symmetry. Shame it's being misused.

"Our" as in the discussion that we are currently having in this thread, not "our" as in shared views or opinions.

 

[mikem]

It ought to be used for someone of wishy washy, constantly changing views, given its ephemeral nature!