topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism

[mudman]

So, sinker, what do you make of the following 5 words:

                                          'GOD  WHO  MADE  THEE MIGHTY'?

I obviously don't know what the writer had in mind when he or she (probalby the former) wrote them, but the inference is  that the British Empire was somehow ordained by god.

If that's not arrogant bullshit, then what it it?

Arrogant bullshit, but Isn't it the sort of stuff many countries have in their national anthems? Eg

Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.

From the southern seas to the polar edge/Our forests and fields are spread out./You are the only one in the world! You are the only one -
the native land so kept by God!

Thank thy God, Whose power/Willed and wrought the land's salvation/In her darkest hour.

We knew thee of old,/O, divinely restored,/By the lights of thine eyes,/And the light of thy Sword.//To arms, citizens!/Form your battalions/Let?s march, let?s march/That their impure blood/Should water our fields.

Yep, why are select groups of words pulled out of the original context and held up as examples of how bad people were without considering the original context?
Those five words should  be put back into the context of the song if you wish to understand what they are saying. The line is 'God, who made thee mighty, make thee mightier yet' and when you can see the whole line, you realise that the singer isn't making some statement about being the chosen of God but are exhorting God to grant greater power than that already given. The song is jingoistic, proudful and boastful but it isn't suggesting divine provenance for the people of Britain.

 

[sinker]

Yep, why are select groups of words pulled out of the original context and held up as examples of how bad people were without considering the original context?
Those five words should  be put back into the context of the song if you wish to understand what they are saying. The line is 'God, who made thee mighty, make thee mightier yet' and when you can see the whole line, you realise that the singer isn't making some statement about being the chosen of God but are exhorting God to grant greater power than that already given. The song is jingoistic, proudful and boastful but it isn't suggesting divine provenance for the people of Britain.

Common sense, thank you, agree!

It's easy to go back 120 years into the past and put a spin on the context; people, the country and the whole world were very different then. Meanings and contexts get missed up and lost.

 

[Fishes]

Many things that were acceptable 120 years ago are thankfully no longer accepted. For the most part I think that is a good thing and I don't think the British Empire is anything to be proud of.

 

[ChrisJC]

The British Empire was a small part on the journey that has taken human civilisation from animals to the luxurious lifestyles we all enjoy today. It cannot be unpicked from that journey. It cannot be changed; trying to retrospectively edit it is just pointless.

I prefer to focus on the good things that have come from history rather than fretting about the bad things that can't be changed and probably weren't even bad back then.

Chris.

 

[tomferry]

I am proud to be British

 

[Speleofish]

I think you have to view the British Empire in the context of the times, when all the major European countries were competing for land, trade and power.  Had there not been a British Empire, there would have been a French, Dutch, Austrian or Russian one.

Without the incentive of an empire to maintain a powerful navy, you could argue that we would have been poorly placed to maintain our own independence and would probably have spent much of the nineteenth century speaking French.

Unquestionably, the British did some unforgiveable things whilst building and maintaining the empire, as did all the other imperial powers when building theirs. These should be acknowledged and it would probably be appropriate to apologise for them (even though such apologies often sound false). Perhaps we should be much less proud of our empire than our grandparents were. That doesn't mean we should be totally ashamed.

 

[Fishes]

I do view the British Empire in the context of the times and know that other countries also did terrible things. We really need to move on and put those behind us though, rather constantly looking backwards and celebrating our long lost and morally questionable Empire.

 

[aardgoose]

It cannot be changed; trying to retrospectively edit it is just pointless.

History is always being edited, events are reevaluated, new evidence is discovered or considered after previous generations have ignored it. That is what historians do.

The following is a badly concealed attempt to edit history..

I prefer to focus on the good things that have come from history.

eg. 'focus on the good things' = 'lets brush all the bad things under the carpet'. The typical fragile "anti-woke" attitude of sticking ones fingers in ones ears when something unpleasant is discovered.

And another attempt to edit history.  Lets redefine what is considered bad, because it happened a long time ago, or in another country, or happened to people you considered lesser or deserving of poor treatment. Most things seen as bad now, were widely seen as bad then, especially to those exploited.

bad things that can't be changed and probably weren't even bad back then

What you don't like is that the edits made to history to whitewash the past, are now being exposed. All those comforting redactions being removed, that reveal the history that you use to prop up your self esteem isn't something to boast about. You want to cling to the child friendly, sanitised, indeed highly edited history of valiant little England against the big bad world.

And what does being proud of being 'British' even mean?  You didn't do anything to achieve being British. It is purely the circumstances you were born into. You didn't create Britain either. How can you be proud of being something that you had no part in making?

Being proud of being British appears to be more about taking credit for the actions of past 'heroes', which is why, when the less pleasant actions of said 'heroes' are highlighted, too many people think they themselves are being attacked, and lash out. I don't have heroes. Too many 'Great Men' have great flaws.

 

[sinker]

It cannot be changed; trying to retrospectively edit it is just pointless.

History is always being edited, events are reevaluated, new evidence is discovered or considered after previous generations have ignored it. That is what historians do.

The following is a badly concealed attempt to edit history..

I prefer to focus on the good things that have come from history.

eg. 'focus on the good things' = 'lets brush all the bad things under the carpet'. The typical fragile "anti-woke" attitude of sticking ones fingers in ones ears when something unpleasant is discovered.

And another attempt to edit history.  Lets redefine what is considered bad, because it happened a long time ago, or in another country, or happened to people you considered lesser or deserving of poor treatment. Most things seen as bad now, were widely seen as bad then, especially to those exploited.

bad things that can't be changed and probably weren't even bad back then

What you don't like is that the edits made to history to whitewash the past, are now being exposed. All those comforting redactions being removed, that reveal the history that you use to prop up your self esteem isn't something to boast about. You want to cling to the child friendly, sanitised, indeed highly edited history of valiant little England against the big bad world.

And what does being proud of being 'British' even mean?  You didn't do anything to achieve being British. It is purely the circumstances you were born into. You didn't create Britain either. How can you be proud of being something that you had no part in making?

Being proud of being British appears to be more about taking credit for the actions of past 'heroes', which is why, when the less pleasant actions of said 'heroes' are highlighted, too many people think they themselves are being attacked, and lash out. I don't have heroes. Too many 'Great Men' have great flaws.

We have a winner....what a cynical unpleasant view of the world you have. 
I can't even be bothered to argue back; pointless.

 

[Fulk]

Hi mudman, I come in peace, I?m not trying to stir up yet more controversy. I?m simply trying to seek clarification of your remarks:

The line is 'God, who made thee mighty, make thee mightier yet' and when you can see the whole line, you realise that the singer isn't making some statement about being the chosen of God but are exhorting God to grant greater power than that already given. The song is jingoistic, proudful and boastful but it isn't suggesting divine provenance for the people of Britain.

To me, it seems quite unequivocal that ?God, who made thee mighty? is claiming that god made Britain powerful, and I genuinely can?t see any other interpretation of those words. Similarly ?Make thee mightier yet? is a supplication to the said god to enhance the power of the British empire.

I daresay that, in the context of the time in which these words were written, a lot of people actually believed them.

 

[sinker]

To me, it seems quite unequivocal that ?God, who made thee mighty? is claiming that god made Britain powerful, and I genuinely can?t see any other interpretation of those words. Similarly ?Make thee mightier yet? is a supplication to the said god to enhance the power of the British empire.

Without a doubt that is how it was intended: "Wider still and wider / shall thy bounds be set".
Push your boundaries (borders) across continents. Expand the Empire.

Doesn't apply now, neither does the sentiment of world domination.
So we still sing the same songs but with different meaning; gives a sense of pride in the Britain of today.
We are all intelligent enough to take out of it what we want but to leave the rest of it in the past.
We're not denying it or glossing over it. We are moving on.
Use it as a reminder of what we are now and what we could be, not what we once were.

 

[Fulk]

Makes sense, sinker; thanks.

 

[Fishes]

We are moving on.

Really? Then you should have no problem with those who think this embrace of the Empire is no longer appropriate.

Would you still feel the same way if Germans were singing Sieg Heil Viktoria or giving Nazi salutes?

 

[aardgoose]

We have a winner....what a cynical unpleasant view of the world you have. 
I can't even be bothered to argue back; pointless.

We have a "prime minister" who relies on the votes of the racists, misogynists, homophobes and the members of the Unity Mitford Appreciation Society, the anti-woke if you will, for his power, who came to power on the back of lies and fraud, a man who has more in common with William Joyce than Winston Churchill. If you can't see the danger there, I can't help you.

 

[sinker]

We are moving on.

Really? Then you should have no problem with those who think this embrace of the Empire is no longer appropriate.

Would you still feel the same way if Germans were singing Sieg Heil Viktoria or giving Nazi salutes?

Who's embracing a long-dead Empire? We're embracing the Britain of today.
If i walked around punching a few foreigners in the face or pretending to shoot a few Boers or Zulus that would be as blasphemous and inexcusable as giving a Nazi salute.
And you are unspeakable for even comparing the singing of 'Land Of Hope And Glory' at the 'Last Night Of The Proms' to Germans giving Nazi salutes.
I can't be tho only one to think that.

Now I'm a left-leaning liberal and support freedom of opinion and speech but even I'm concerned that this thread has gone too far. Several steps too far.
Nice move, trying to be clever. Doesn't suit you I'm afraid.

 

[Fishes]

Two empires, both guilty of unspeakable things in their time. Both should be remembered for what they were rather than celebrated under the cover of patriotism and tradition.

 

[sinker]

Two empires, both guilty of unspeakable things in their time. Both should be remembered for what they were rather than celebrated under the cover of patriotism and tradition.

You win. I'm done. I'm out.

 

[royfellows]

You should have stayed out. What happens to something that doesn't get fed?
Not sure about them 'winning' either.

 

[ChrisJC]

And what does being proud of being 'British' even mean? 

I can elaborate on that:
- I am proud to be part of a society where I can criticise the government without fear of reprisal (compare China, Russia, Belaurus, Turkey for a start).
- People are free to study without regard to gender (compare a good part of the islamic world)
- People generally respect the law and the law enforcement agencies.
- The electricity and water that come to my house do so reliably.
- We have a world class health service that is free at the point of consumption.
- We are free to change our rulers every 4-5 years.
- We have a free press.
- Our society took on the Nazi regime at huge cost. And prevailed.
- I am proud that our society allowed the flourishing of such luminaries as Newton, Maxwell, Graham-Bell, Swan, Darwin, Sophie Wilson, Whittle.
- I am proud that our legal system is among the best in the world.
- I am proud that our society allows people of all sexualities to live freely without fear of reprisal.

And the list goes on.

I for one am incredibly grateful that I live at this point in history and in this society. And I am proud of everything that my forefathers have achieved.

Of course, you can pick holes in everything I say. I feel sorry for you, you must be such a positive person.

Chris.

 

[pwhole]

I also agree with and am equally proud of all those points above - I just don't like patriotic music or flag-waving, mainly as I think it's crude, and makes me feel like I'm in one of those other countries you mentioned when I hear it, so I turned it over. It seems like a reflex event that can't be stopped for sentimental reasons, rather than one that is actually necessary. I wonder if the Proms organisers have any idea of the shitstorm they've caused here?