total confused by the cncc website

[hell little caver]

i think the tital says it all i wanted to apie for a load of permits but the website total confused me who i need to aplie to for each of the caves as it's really un clear!

anyone able to help yes i realise i'm a bit blond but i thought getting permits would be easy i was wrong!

thanks

hellie

 

[langcliffe]

Find the cave or area you are interested in (Access page).

If it's a cave that you do not require a CNCC permit for, you will be told if you need to get permission from elsewhere.

If you are told that the cave falls into a CNCC administered area, go to the Contacts page to establish the address of the Meets Secretary for that area. You then apply in writing for a permit.

 

[Peter Burgess]

You then apply in writing for a permit.

Wot's "writing" ? 

 

[langcliffe]

Wot's "writing" ? 

It's a filtering device used by the CNCC to exclude southerners and people under 30 from northern caves.

 

[khakipuce]

You then apply in writing for a permit.

Wot's "writing" ? 

And does it come with a spell chequer 

 

[dunc]

As langcliffe says, it's fairly straightforward to apply for a permit. There's only four permit/meets secretaries so it's not too much trouble to gain access to a fair number of caves. Three have email addresses so sometimes it's worth emailing to check if the date you want is still available.

If you don't/can't email to check dates don't forget to supply extra/alternate dates (just in case your first choice isn't available), check the date doesn't fall in the closed season (some caves/fells do have this unfortunately) and also include a SAE.

 

[damian]

There's a good summary on P.41 of the BCA Handbook (but I would say that  :halo. In fact there's a similar summary for all regions in there.

You can download a copy from here.

 

[Cavedrone]

Just wondering if hell little caver has a brother called Alex  :-\

 

[Alex]

Hey!, I just noticed this post. Remind me next time I see you, to stuff you down a pot hole and then fill it in with concrete, Rick.  :tease:

Hmm  I wonder could if I could get a permit for that?  :-\

At least I do not spell apply "applie".

I agree with Cavedrone however and wonder why you need to apply by letter. Get with the times hehe! I am glad you handle all that Dunc for our club, I suppose being a postman you can then deliver them personally.

 

[Alex]

Slightly off topic but I read a link which was posted on a certain trip where alot of good suggestions were made towards the end, I was wondering how close if at all these are to be implemented.

The simplest solution I would use is to not use dates when issuing permits instead allotting a certain amount for example only have 52 for the year therefor no matter what the weather is doing you can go when it suits you (provided it is not in closed season or dates stipulated when no caving is to be done).

You could have a meet for certain trips only to have the weather cancel your plans and send people back home or even worse. chance it anyway, as you may have to wait another 6 months to get another one.

The issue however which blows my above idea out of the water is, whats to stop people re-using the permit. That is the point that the below may cover.

Maybe you send an e-mail on the day or night before when you know your trip is going ahead. When you send the e-mail the e-mail it effectively counts as you have used the permit. If your in the cave without sending that e-mail even when you have one of the permits it is like caving without one. The land owner/farmer could have a copy of these e-mails if they want to check on people.

I know this system works quite a bit on trust but dont the current system too?

All you need for this to work is excel and a list of clubs and e-mails. To make it even easier someone could build an application that does most of the above automatically, but that would be further on down the line.

Just an idea, post your none flaming thoughts.

P.s. If there is an unlocked thread this should be posted against feel free to move it there.

 

[Cavegod]

or just use permits where they check them and where they don't just go when you want like i have been doing for 15 years??

as long as the land owner sees that permits are being applied for and no damage or gates being left open to his/her land then there is no problem at least this is what i was told one day in Bernies by a cncc member who shall remain nameless Dunc knows who as he was there so i shall retell the story to you on sat

 

[damian]

The simplest solution I would use is to not use dates when issuing permits instead allotting a certain amount for example only have 52 for the year therefor no matter what the weather is doing you can go when it suits you (provided it is not in closed season or dates stipulated when no caving is to be done).

And if the landowners agreed to it, it would indeed be great. The trouble is the don't. They wish to restrict the numbers of people on their fell each day, hence the requirement for a permit to have an exact date. In fact in most cases they ask to be told a full month or more in advance exactly who will be on their fell and when.

The current system really isn't cavers being awkward. It's just the best system we can get.

And I say all this as someone who doesn't do any of the negotiating and I don't think really has a clue quite how downright difficult it can be at times.

Also, before anybody considers mouthing off about any of this here, please bear in mind that landowners and their agents can use computers and do read these pages. It REALLY doesn't help future negotiations if people are openly talking about pirating caves.

 

[Alex]

I bet this all boils down to insurance because I cannot think of another reason why they need to know whos on the fell at any given time as long as the visitors do not exceed the numbers in the year. So if any of you land agents are listening could you please respectfully explain your position and maybe we could understand a bit more in future and help future negotiations.

 

[Cavegod]

strange how the land owners are not bothered by walkers since most if not all of the york dales is open access land??  :doubt:

 

[dunc]

I'm sure this had been raised on here numerous times in the past but: They probably are bothered by walkers and would love to keep them off their precious land but walkers have the Crow act on their side whilst we don't, because we are special and different and don't exist in the eyes of most people...

 

[khakipuce]

The countryside and rights of way act 2000, which introduced open access land, reduced landowners responsibility for walkers. However landowners are still liable for hazards on their land.

 

[Cavegod]

well i am not aware of any incident where a landowner has been sued for a caving accident?

 

[Les W]

well i am not aware of any incident where a landowner has been sued for a caving accident?

Apart from the incident of the scout and Gaping Ghyll 

 

[Alex]

Well then cant we all just wave our right to sue, unless we are injured on the surface (facing same dangers as walkers) or I guess they dump some scrap on our heads.

We could right a contract that says "We will not hold the land owner responsible for any injury or death that occours under his/her land, unless it is a direct result of the land owners actions such as the following cases: 1) A land owner/worker dumps spoil down a shaft. 2) A land owner/worker tampers or removes cavers ropes. 3) A land owner/worker blocks an entrance to a cave (as there could be people inside)."

I am no lawyer but I am sure someone with some legal background could make a document to that effect. Leave it signed and displayed in the car window. Job done.

Failing that maybe we should go legal and get the same rights that walkers get, there is more of them injured than cavers just look at this years incident log on the CRO website.

 

[Les W]

I'm sure others will have a more informed opinion (I am not a lawyer) but I believe under English law that it is not possible to sign away your legal rights and if somebody is negligent then no amount of "blood chits" or other legal disclaimers can change that.
However, no landowner has been successfully sued over a caving accident to my knowledge (the Gaping Gill case was thrown out of court).

The land owners responsibilities (and exclusions to those liabilities) are set out in two bits of legislation
Occupiers Liability act 1957
Occupiers Liability act 1984

The really interesting bit in the acts is Volenti non fit injuria"

Taking the above into consideration I don't believe that land owners are restricting access to their land for cavers because of insurance. They are normally insured against any risks from allowing people onto their land arising from the two landowners liability acts and Volenti non fit injuria would seem to remove liability from them for anybody that went caving, as they would be acting willingly in placing themselves into known danger (perceived danger).