Ukraine

DickW

Member
No doubt everyone reading this deplores what's happening in Ukraine but we are not divorced from it. Like many or you, I've been caving with both Ukrainian and Russian colleagues. I've messaged the latter and had responses from some indicating their dismay at what Putin is doing and highlighting the authority's repression of those who protest against it.

Like many other organisations, the UIS issued a statement about the situation, it's attached along with the response from the Ukrainian cavers. If you read both, you'll understand why the Ukrainians are more than a little disappointed.
 

Attachments

  • International Union of Speleology - Statement on the situation in Ukraine.pdf
    174.6 KB · Views: 138
  • UIS_statement_UkrSA_reaction_ENG.pdf
    102.9 KB · Views: 125

royfellows

Active member
Reading this, the way that its looking to me is that its going to kick off between cavers now, not on here, but within the international community.

The whole situation is a long way from being as simplistic as the main stream media portray it, with split loyalties within Ukraine itself. One only needs to do ones research.

I don?t know what others think, but I question whether this discussion belongs on here.
 

Jopo

Member
I do not question and support that the ukcaving forum should be allowing views to be expressed on the conflict. Surely the ukcaving forum is part of the international caving community. We all are.

I have never caved in Ukraine but have met a few of their cave rescue guys over the years. I agree with the response by the Ukrainian cavers to the UIS statement. Sitting on the fence is what helps encourage this shit and pretending cavers are somehow aloof from all this is depressing.

 

tomferry

Active member
I personally think it?s a extremely complicated subject , I have a mate who works with a Russian ex military and he swears hand over heart it?s all fake news and it?s not happening and that Russia has never started a war in all its history . What my views are about his comment are certainly not going to change anything . Just using that as a example of how complicated it all is .
 

aricooperdavis

Moderator
This is part of the reason why I think a non-exclusionary but vocally anti-war approach like this might be more effective than an outright ban. Putting this information in front of every Russian possible is likely to change more minds than banning them from the conversation. I appreciate that it's a really complex situation though, and I am very poorly informed.
 

royfellows

Active member
Tomferry said:
I personally think it?s a extremely complicated subject , I have a mate who works with a Russian ex military and he swears hand over heart it?s all fake news and it?s not happening and that Russia has never started a war in all its history . What my views are about his comment are certainly not going to change anything . Just using that as a example of how complicated it all is .

Yes, he lives in a totalitarian regime lead by a lunatic, and has been fed a diet of shit.
Just so that there is no doubt about where I stand on this. But still question whether it belongs on here.
 

DickW

Member
"the way that its looking to me is that its going to kick off between cavers now, not on here, but within the international community."  The regrettable fact is that it almost certainly already has - conscripted Russian cavers shooting at Ukrainian cavers defending their country, and vice versa. I caved in Uzbekistan with a cavers from both (then Soviet) countries. I'm only in contact now with one of those Russian cavers and he is strongly opposed to Putin's actions, as are (he reports) thousands of others in civilian society who are slammed down by the authorities for speaking out against what's going on. We do  them no good by fence sitting, nor do we stop those cavers who are on opposite sides of the fighting.
 

MarkS

Moderator
royfellows said:
I don?t know what others think, but I question whether this discussion belongs on here.

Obviously this is a sensitive subject, but equally this is an open forum and I don't see why people shouldn't be free to discuss statements from caving associations on ukcaving. The only "rules" are that posts shouldn't go against the forum acceptable use policy.
 

Cantclimbtom

Active member
One thing that this site has in its favour, it is by and large non political - at least non-caving politics (and I am oblivious to the caving politics anyway).

I think there is a lot to be discussed about Ukraine and people shouldn't keep quiet, but there are plenty of better sites than UKCaving for that?  I'll slink off back to the mining area now.
 
This is one of those enormous subjects that reduces me to four simple thoughts. First, Putin's aggression is unforgiveable and should be condemned and resisted. Second, Ukraine and the Ukrainians deserve all the support we can offer. Third, most of the Russian people who support the war do so because they have been comprehensively lied to by Putin and his propaganda machine. Fourth,  no matter how awful this conflict is, escalation to a wider world (or european) war would be catastrophically worse.



 

royfellows

Active member
Speleofish said:
This is one of those enormous subjects that reduces me to four simple thoughts. First, Putin's aggression is unforgiveable and should be condemned and resisted. Second, Ukraine and the Ukrainians deserve all the support we can offer. Third, most of the Russian people who support the war do so because they have been comprehensively lied to by Putin and his propaganda machine. Fourth,  no matter how awful this conflict is, escalation to a wider world (or european) war would be catastrophically worse.

I'll second all of that, but add one of my own. Best way to move forward is for the Russian people to wise up and take their country back from the select few despots who have been running things.
 

tomferry

Active member
Agree with both of the two above , I believe the leaders are to blame in Russia as they still believe they are in the days of the czars
 

David Rose

Member
I don't think this subject is "complex". Nor is it "sensitive". It is "complex" in the same way that mass murder or attributing blame for the Holocaust are complex: ie, not complex at all.

Russia launched a war of conquest and aggression and is now committing war crimes on a massive scale. Thousands of civilians, including children, have been butchered. Millions have lost their homes and their livelihoods. Ukrainian infrastructure has been pulverised. People have been deported from cities such as Mariupol to who knows what fate in Russia. There may be things you can find if you look about Ukraine in the recent past that you don't find attractive, but next to these overwhelming and frankly incontestable facts they are utterly trivial. And anyone who says Russia didn't really launch a war is deluded and deserves neither attention nor respect.

I am aware that there are many brave Russians who are as appalled by Putin's actions as anyone else, and I am sure these must include many cavers. Any decent UIS statement should reflect this. It should not be couched as an attack on the Russian people, cavers included, and I don't agree with the parts of the Ukrainian statement that appear to suggest that Russians bear some kind of collective responsibility for the war because they voted for Putin.

Nevertheless, in my view, the UIS statement is woefully inadequate and must be withdrawn and revised if the organisation is to retain any credibility. As it stands, it is a shameful disgrace.
 

royfellows

Active member
In reply to David, at least in part:

A delusion is a false fixed belief that is not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence. As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, confabulation, dogma, illusion, hallucination, or some other misleading effects of perception, as individuals with those beliefs are able to change or readjust their beliefs upon reviewing the evidence

(Wiki)

My comment is that many of the 'deluded' have been denied access to anything other than what the Putin regime have been putting out. It has been said that if a lie is repeated often enough it becomes accepted as the truth.
It would be interesting to take some of those Russians who believe that bullshit, into Ukraine and show them what their bombs and missiles have done to innocent civilians. In the same way as Nazis were taken to the concentration camps at the end of WW2 and made to see what had been done there.
Especially those filmed wearing "Z" tee shirts and their ilk.

I was going to keep out of this, but find I cannot.
 

David Rose

Member
Roy, I am sure you are right about people with such views being fed only Russian propaganda.

Anyway: I have news. I've just had a chat with Andy Eavis, the BCA's UIS representative. He has given me permission to post the following:

Having considered the views being expressed, the UIS is going to issue a new, much tougher statement, and is working on it now.

This sounds like a positive step.
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
I think you deserve our thanks David for making the effort to put these views to Andy.

All the while this whole series of war crimes has been going on, I've been wondering if I'm the only one pondering on whether there's anything the caving community could do to help refugees directly. (Other than making donations to DEC etc, which I know a great many of us are already doing.)
 

lumenchild

Member
Caving is the sport that Judges nobody, We all go outdoors to escape the troubles of life, we have people from all walks of life, so if our community was to change because of this conflict it would be tragic.

While i wholeheartedly agree that what is happening in Ukraine is tragic, and abhorrant.

The way our global community has always been is, if you are a caver and i'm a caver were technically family, because in a cave if you can go the places I can, then there's no reason to not do it together.

Yeah i see the climbing community have been making a shift due to the conflict, but we are not the climbing community we may also be climbers, but we are cavers and we stick together and I think it's important we don't lose scope of this.

 

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
I'm always careful of accepting news as true.  Propaganda is always a huge issue during wartime.

I'm still convinced Russia is the aggressor in Ukraine and i just can't see that the footage of bombed out civilian buildings is anything but an horrific assault on poor innocent people.  Murderous if you like.  If you believe this basic version of events then taking sides is the only option we small group of cavers have in influencing events. 

If we accept our fellow Russian cavers are not part of the problem then basically you can't accept that any part of Russian society is at fault either.  One man in Russia is not acting alone.  You have to make it absolutely clear to anyone connected and part of Russia that this is just not acceptable.

The shit storm is upon us anyway and the UIS needs to wake up IMO.
 

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
A point to consider

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/22/russian-friend-putin-propaganda-facebook-ukraine-invasion
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
I have to agree with Badlad's sentiments.

In my earlier post I wrote: "I've been wondering if I'm the only one pondering on whether there's anything the caving community could do to help refugees directly.". What was in my mind was whether the caving community might be able to offer any temporary accommodation in caving hostels. The number of families with no roof over there heads is now an unthinkable number. Could we fortunate folk who are able to pursue our pastime, whilst fellow human beings are being slaughtered by the coward in the Kremlin, maybe provide at least a small amount of accommodation in the short term?

I don't know the ins and outs of this but I thought it worth at least asking the question.
 
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