Under 18's & Caving FAQ
- Thread starter nearlywhite
- Start date
People generally, and children in particular, respond favourably to competitiveness: Hidden Earth has numerous timed competitive caving tasks for example.
I have to say this is probably untrue -- most of the kids I know and especially those that cave will just walk away or do other things if you turn it into a competition.
Thing that attracts most of the kids I know is the lack of competitive sport to caving
I have to say this is probably untrue -- most of the kids I know and especially those that cave will just walk away or do other things if you turn it into a competition.
Thing that attracts most of the kids I know is the lack of competitive sport to caving
cap n chris
Well-known member
Cookie said:
Hi Cookie,
Guesstimate, more than 5K p.a.
Re: comparison - pretty sure BCA's Youth & Development only covers 18+years, so don't understand what you're alluding to; unless you are suggesting that BCA might be intending to engage with under 18s, which would be great.
Re: competitions & children mentioned elsewhere: did people actually watch the same video as me?
badger
Active member
I also think like chris people have a tinted view of youth caving in the uk. many clubs are not welcoming to young people, unless with a parent, in fact some club members are not even very welcoming of anyone than there little groups. The best way for under 18's to experience caving is via one of the youth movements, scouts, cadets. Hopefully some of the really interested ones can be encouraged, guided and educated so when they hit 18 they will go off join clubs or uni clubs and go to do more caving.
Permit systems also put another hurdle in the way of under 18 caving, red tape being the argument put forward.
and if people really think caving is flourishing with the youth, then they need to go to hidden earth or even bca council, cause I must obviously not be seeing things correctly with the age demographic or lots of us are not quite telling the truth when asked and we reply 21. like me :-\
Permit systems also put another hurdle in the way of under 18 caving, red tape being the argument put forward.
and if people really think caving is flourishing with the youth, then they need to go to hidden earth or even bca council, cause I must obviously not be seeing things correctly with the age demographic or lots of us are not quite telling the truth when asked and we reply 21. like me :-\
Cookie
New member
Chris, so going with your guestimate. I would say a similar numbers of kids are being introduced to caving in Yorkshire, Derbyshire, Wales, Devon and other areas. So 25k plus around the country. That's 4 to 5 times BCA's membership being introduced to caving every year. That's a lot. The professional leaders are doing caving a great service if that experience leads to future cavers.
I don't see how your contention that "British caving as it presently stands is probably presiding over its own extinction." can hold true in the face of such numbers.
The OP mentions some advertising. Some effort and advertising aimed at this group to improve the conversion rate could be very rewarding.
The vast majority of clubs do not have the resources or inclination to deal with kids without caving parents. Badger is right, this group should be encouraged toward the youth groups such as scouting and cadets. I think BCA could do more to support the youth groups. CHECC has been very successful in supporting the university route into caving. It is a pity that the Association of Scout Caving Teams (ASCT) hasn't had the same impact yet.
It is good to hear our under 18 poster above, ObviousSpectre, found his way into caving via scouts. We need more of that.
I don't see how your contention that "British caving as it presently stands is probably presiding over its own extinction." can hold true in the face of such numbers.
The OP mentions some advertising. Some effort and advertising aimed at this group to improve the conversion rate could be very rewarding.
The vast majority of clubs do not have the resources or inclination to deal with kids without caving parents. Badger is right, this group should be encouraged toward the youth groups such as scouting and cadets. I think BCA could do more to support the youth groups. CHECC has been very successful in supporting the university route into caving. It is a pity that the Association of Scout Caving Teams (ASCT) hasn't had the same impact yet.
It is good to hear our under 18 poster above, ObviousSpectre, found his way into caving via scouts. We need more of that.
Oscar D
Active member
I believe that the way most clubs are currently behaving as to the acceptance of under 18's into their ranks is definitely having a negative impact on the amount of young people engaging in the sport. Unfortunately it is not within the financial or logistical capacity of many Scout groups to take many young people caving. The only way I manage to get underground is by with friends and so far this has worked well and we have been having a great time but many would not be comfortable with this method and would therefore be better off joining a club, which can be tricky.
alastairgott
Well-known member
Cookie said:
I've seen only good things from the Derbyshire lot. We even lost one of our younger members to them, as he realised that helping out with the Derbyshire scouts would give him a lot of the sort of Caving he likes, but top guy.
I don't think that poking holes in the way people are going about trying to introduce new cavers is very helpful.
If everyone took at least one new person Caving each year (and they liked it) we'd be in a much better position.
It's very easy to have big goals, but it must be a concerted effort for it to be useful.
You may hear very little, but that doesn't mean theres nothing going on.
Yes it is patchy around the country, however,
one scout caving team in Derbyshire got over 980 young people under ground last year,
2 new teams are being established in south wales.
We do about 6 weekends in mendips a year ( we are 150miles away) and tasters in a local mine
however all we are basically doing is giving youngsters that one off (or once a year) experience
If kids enjoy football they join a football team
cricket join a cricket team
swimming, swimming club
dance, dance club
etc
if they enjoy caving where do they turn??
Its the same with the 5,000 that get a caving experience in goatchurch, how do they continue in this activity?
Sorry you'll have to wait until you're 18?
We have 6 or so youngsters that we take caving a fair amount, but then most of their parents are cavers.
To get more youngsters caving we need more adults to get involved
If anyone is interested in helping out with scout caving, or even youngsters at club level if something can be sorted then get in contact with me or nearlywhite
Yes it is patchy around the country, however,
one scout caving team in Derbyshire got over 980 young people under ground last year,
2 new teams are being established in south wales.
We do about 6 weekends in mendips a year ( we are 150miles away) and tasters in a local mine
however all we are basically doing is giving youngsters that one off (or once a year) experience
If kids enjoy football they join a football team
cricket join a cricket team
swimming, swimming club
dance, dance club
etc
if they enjoy caving where do they turn??
Its the same with the 5,000 that get a caving experience in goatchurch, how do they continue in this activity?
Sorry you'll have to wait until you're 18?
We have 6 or so youngsters that we take caving a fair amount, but then most of their parents are cavers.
To get more youngsters caving we need more adults to get involved
If anyone is interested in helping out with scout caving, or even youngsters at club level if something can be sorted then get in contact with me or nearlywhite
Cookie
New member
That's good to hear. It sounds like it is happening more at a regional level than at ASCT level.
If you can offer 6 trips a year to younger people, sustaining their interest until they can cave independently then I think you are doing a great job.
As mentioned above some clubs do allow young members to cave independently of parents from age 16, which is significantly better than 18.
Ultimately though a Club can't force it's members to lead trips for young people. That's not what they signed up for. The challenge is far more about changing hearts and minds than changing club rules.
If you can offer 6 trips a year to younger people, sustaining their interest until they can cave independently then I think you are doing a great job.
As mentioned above some clubs do allow young members to cave independently of parents from age 16, which is significantly better than 18.
Ultimately though a Club can't force it's members to lead trips for young people. That's not what they signed up for. The challenge is far more about changing hearts and minds than changing club rules.
cap n chris
Well-known member
Cookie said:
Perhaps the challenge is for the Nation's caving administration to organise caving youth camps (as many overseas equivalents do on a regular basis) so that children who have tried caving and enjoyed it and wish to learn to become cavers have an opportunity to do so, including a full range of techniques so that when they are old enough to join a Uni/club they can hit the ground running, rather than start as novices.
There may be too much of an entrenched disconnect, though, between the caving bodies and the providers of professional/led services to the Adventure Activities market (the latter being an obvious channel for such a provision) - the Scouting organisation would be a potential route for addressing this, though, if it was provided significant financial, administrative, advertising and access support.
cap n chris
Well-known member
Millfield School used (perhaps still does) to provide a series of summer camps, with repeated week-long tuition (i.e. same programme each week, over and over, for a month, so lots of children could learn a new activity): I don't believe they did/do one for Caving/Speleology.
Think caving-specific equivalent of a Plas-y-Brenin style college for children. It would need funding but BCA is awash with money, isn't it?, so there's no issue there - the main difficulty will be to break the inertia which seems to paralyse many people.
Think caving-specific equivalent of a Plas-y-Brenin style college for children. It would need funding but BCA is awash with money, isn't it?, so there's no issue there - the main difficulty will be to break the inertia which seems to paralyse many people.
Leclused
Active member
Cap'n Chris said:
Here is how it works here in Belgium for the flemish young cavers.
Under the federation (VVS) there is a special group "VVS-jongeren". This special group is lead by a group of young adults (20-30 year) + some elder ones. Most of them are certifiate cavers (Brevet B - VVS). They organise around 5 week-ends of caving each year were only young people are allowed. The limit is 12 years but flexible. My youngest son started at the age of 11 because they knew he already had some experience.
Every two years they also organise a camp of one week in the south of France.
This group of leaders are all volunteers and they come from different cavings clubs.
Some info : https://www.speleovvs.be/index.php/nl/jongeren
Some pics from their week-ends/camps : https://www.speleovvs.be/index.php/nl/fotos/category/2-vvs-jongerenwerking
The ASCT website is a bit sparse at the moment: http://scoutscaving.com/index.html
It does have a link to the BCA website - where the headline news is - the closure of Twll Du!
The main Scouting website is a bit more helpful:
https://members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/14/caving?moduleID=24&cat=26,407,351
& the local set up, far more user friendly: http://www.somersetscoutcaving.org/
Whilst Hampshire has pre-set dates: http://hscc.randomstuff.org.uk/
Mike
It does have a link to the BCA website - where the headline news is - the closure of Twll Du!
The main Scouting website is a bit more helpful:
https://members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/14/caving?moduleID=24&cat=26,407,351
& the local set up, far more user friendly: http://www.somersetscoutcaving.org/
Whilst Hampshire has pre-set dates: http://hscc.randomstuff.org.uk/
Mike
Big Bad Botch
Member
I think this is an important issue in terms of bridging the gap between 'try caving' sessions and the (usually) 18+ requirements to join a club. In my opinion, one good way to help would be to ask uni clubs if they could take on younger members, as they have yearly experience of taking many complete novices underground (and the age gap may be less of a problem!).
The first step, as is highlighted here, is to get more information out, as many clubs will be uninformed. We're guilty of this ourselves - a couple years ago we turned away a 17yo prospective member as we didn't believe we could take her underground. We had no idea that all we needed was a letter of permission from her parents. Luckily, she waited for her birthday and came back, and caves with us still.
The first step, as is highlighted here, is to get more information out, as many clubs will be uninformed. We're guilty of this ourselves - a couple years ago we turned away a 17yo prospective member as we didn't believe we could take her underground. We had no idea that all we needed was a letter of permission from her parents. Luckily, she waited for her birthday and came back, and caves with us still.
nearlywhite
Active member
Cheers for those who contributed, especially ObviousSpectre - very glad to correspond with you.
The BCA Youth and Development Working Group (at least 4 of whom have contributed to the thread btw) will be working on an information campaign to help clubs make informed decisions about taking young people caving. If the reasons they aren't being allowed to join in activities is for fear of litigation then that's a problem we can fix.
As for CapnChris 'Perhaps the challenge is for the Nation's caving administration to organise caving youth camps'
I do have a suggestion: set one up. There are quite a few people who bring up the idea so presumably there would be significant support. Why would the BCA Youth and Development Working Group not do it you might ask? It's a big undertaking and would shut down the work that is currently being done by the group. We would be able to support it should someone be keen enough to be a driving force behind it. I might also point out a major difference between our caving cultures - we rely heavily on university clubs to breed cavers and many adult clubs pick them up after they graduate, elsewhere you tend to have big clubs that have generations taking people caving. I stress some of our UK clubs are like this but we could do better - I'd argue that those camps are a symptom of a healthy caving community rather than the driving cause. As for CICs being funded by the BCA to do what they do commercially anyway, I think there are far more effective ways to spend the money - like supporting the forest scouts movement, or ASCT, or CHECC, or even Ghar Parau to a higher degree.
I'll make my BCA report public on this forum prior to the meeting on the 6th of January - not to oversell it but I think people will be impressed with how the inflexible archaic BCA is adapting to the times and responding to its demographic crisis - by the way badger the reason there weren't many young people were at HE this year was because they were taking their fresher trips as it was a week late.
Rostam (that bloke who sings)
The BCA Youth and Development Working Group (at least 4 of whom have contributed to the thread btw) will be working on an information campaign to help clubs make informed decisions about taking young people caving. If the reasons they aren't being allowed to join in activities is for fear of litigation then that's a problem we can fix.
As for CapnChris 'Perhaps the challenge is for the Nation's caving administration to organise caving youth camps'
I do have a suggestion: set one up. There are quite a few people who bring up the idea so presumably there would be significant support. Why would the BCA Youth and Development Working Group not do it you might ask? It's a big undertaking and would shut down the work that is currently being done by the group. We would be able to support it should someone be keen enough to be a driving force behind it. I might also point out a major difference between our caving cultures - we rely heavily on university clubs to breed cavers and many adult clubs pick them up after they graduate, elsewhere you tend to have big clubs that have generations taking people caving. I stress some of our UK clubs are like this but we could do better - I'd argue that those camps are a symptom of a healthy caving community rather than the driving cause. As for CICs being funded by the BCA to do what they do commercially anyway, I think there are far more effective ways to spend the money - like supporting the forest scouts movement, or ASCT, or CHECC, or even Ghar Parau to a higher degree.
I'll make my BCA report public on this forum prior to the meeting on the 6th of January - not to oversell it but I think people will be impressed with how the inflexible archaic BCA is adapting to the times and responding to its demographic crisis - by the way badger the reason there weren't many young people were at HE this year was because they were taking their fresher trips as it was a week late.
Rostam (that bloke who sings)
