Under 18's & Caving FAQ

[cap n chris]

Rostam, is BCA money available to support non-BCA-member events? e.g. can BCA bung money at Scouts, ASCT? If so then how much might be available to run with the suggestion you made above about progressing an independent youth camp?

Why would the BCA Youth and Development Working Group not do it you might ask? It's a big undertaking and would shut down the work that is currently being done by the group. We would be able to support it should someone be keen enough to be a driving force behind it.

BCA was behind the successful mega-event EuroSpeleo: a youth camp would be easy-peasy by comparison and any number of outdoor centres would probably leap at the opportunity to host a BCA-underwritten/sponsored/funded multi-day caving event for a few handsful of keen 2nd-stage cavers, Scouts included, no doubt.

BCA doesn't need to solely "rely heavily on University clubs to breed cavers"; as mentioned earlier, the professional sector introduces in excess of 25,000 young people to caving each year (guesstimate) but once they've tried it, there's little 2nd stage opportunity for them: if - and it's not a particularly big if - there was an avenue they could pursue whereby they could attend a dedicated focussed course for caving then you might find a good number of technically capable under 18s could be primed each year. It's not rocket science but if BCA want in then they only need to develop the political will to do so. 

 

[nearlywhite]

I've no idea if the PM I've sent made it or not.

First of all I can't make promises about BCA funding, but I would say that the BCA does have a good track record of funding reasonable costed requests that benefit British Caving. As for the assertion regarding the BCA and Eurospeleo - that was a separate company operating with a hefty lump sum provided by the BCA. There were many volunteers that also were part of BCA, many that were not. It also absorbed a lot of time and effort (and was worth it) but impacted other projects. The BCA expanded its Youth and Development team as 1 person couldn't manage to do everything. There are now 10 members of the group, many of whom already have significant commitments. You might see how getting that group to start on a potentially low yield project might cause ASCT, CHECC or other Y&D projects to suffer.

I'd argue the 2nd stage opportunity comes in the form of organisations such as the scouts that take people caving regularly over the course of a year, not a one off event. That said I think it would be a useful side project if someone had the time to be the driving force behind it. There is definitely the political will, the issue is finding people with enough free time to take on these projects.

 

[Badlad]

Eurospeleo and Hidden Earth are very inward looking events tailored only at those already caving.  I thought Eurospeleo in particular was an opportunity missed.  Events like this could reach out to both the local community and beginners, 2nd stagers or whatever you wish to call them. 

The Mendip Cavefest would appear to be another opportunity to reach out to beginners and include showcase events to the non caver.  Perhaps that is already on the cards.

 

[RichardB1983]

Unfortunately it is not within the financial or logistical capacity of many Scout groups to take many young people caving.

Which is why quite a few of the counties have dedicated caving "Active Support" units / Scout Caving Teams who, with the backing of a county scout council, do have the financial and logistical capacity to take many young people caving - just like there are for several other activities. Not all counties have a caving one, but then again not all counties are close to major caving areas.

 

[nearlywhite]

Eurospeleo and Hidden Earth are very inward looking events tailored only at those already caving.  I thought Eurospeleo in particular was an opportunity missed.  Events like this could reach out to both the local community and beginners, 2nd stagers or whatever you wish to call them. 

The Mendip Cavefest would appear to be another opportunity to reach out to beginners and include showcase events to the non caver.  Perhaps that is already on the cards.

It is on the cards.

Community engagement does bring in a lot of people - and clubs that do it bring in a decent number of young working class people, if that's not an outdated term by now. Several clubs do it really well and if anyone needs any advice then please do get in touch - I'll be making a more substantive post about this in the near future.

 

[2xw]

I think this is an important issue in terms of bridging the gap between 'try caving' sessions and the (usually) 18+ requirements to join a club. In my opinion, one good way to help would be to ask uni clubs if they could take on younger members, as they have yearly experience of taking many complete novices underground (and the age gap may be less of a problem!).

The first step, as is highlighted here, is to get more information out, as many clubs will be uninformed. We're guilty of this ourselves - a couple years ago we turned away a 17yo prospective member as we didn't believe we could take her underground. We had no idea that all we needed was a letter of permission from her parents. Luckily, she waited for her birthday and came back, and caves with us still.

I don't think student caving clubs are the appropriate place to have children as members. Not in terms of their behaviour, their resources or even legally.

This is something that should be taken on by the wider caving community which is a little more family friendly in general.

 

[phil lilley]

Just to throw my opinion into the mix. As team leader of Derbyshire scouts (northwest) team. Last year we took over 900 under 18s caving. Having just done this years figures i can confirm we have had a terrible year and numbers are down  we only manged to take 844 under 18s this year. 
We have 46 trips booked next year already and thats just before  August.  From my view atleast scouts caving is thriving

 

[cap n chris]

Fabulous to hear, Phil! - excellent stuff! Scouts is probably the go-to place for under 18s who are super-keen to progress into active caving and learn all there is to learn. Caving clubs do not appear to be set up (or the right atmosphere) for under 18s.

Would dearly like to see the UK emulating some of our European counterparts in terms of fully training up under 18s to become highly adept technical cavers. Specialist Scout troops are probably the best bet for this. The national and regional UK caving bodies draw their membership from clubs generally so are already one step removed from things. The 25,000+ under 18s who cave with professional providers might do well to have a choice of Scout website/emails they can be directed towards if they want to move onto the next step with caving after trying it and finding out they love it. I feel that for too long our system has missed out on scooping these keeners up and bringing them along to better things. Perhaps in this regard our system is far from ideal, to put it mildly. Unfit for purpose, dysfunctional, broken etc. might be more apt.

Phil, it's great to hear that there actually is a vibrant youth caving undercurrent - it has been all too easy to despair about under 18 caving progression opportunities in the UK - BCA's Youth and Development role historically has (unless anyone can counter my misunderstanding) hitherto defined youth as people who are already legally adults, i.e. students.

There is such a long way to go, though. I doubt I will live long enough to witness a video of masses of UK children as young as the Spaniards caving with that degree of technical mastery.

 

[phil lilley]

The problems i come up against is thr play station generation and cotton wool kids. Many of the kids i see dont go out climbing trees like we used to do as kids. Many sit on games consoles all day. Pare ts wrap them in cotton wool and dont allow them out.
  I have taken parents with their own kids caving and the oarents hold the childs hand and wont let go. Bare in mind some of the kids we take are 8-9 years old. 

 

[Judi Durber]

parents hold the childs hand and wont let go

Have someone on parent distraction duty 

 

[Pitlamp]

Caving clubs do not appear to be set up (or the right atmosphere) for under 18s.

Would dearly like to see the UK emulating some of our European counterparts in terms of fully training up under 18s to become highly adept technical cavers.

Perhaps in this regard our system is far from ideal, to put it mildly. Unfit for purpose, dysfunctional, broken etc. might be more apt.

Chris - I've just picked out a few points from your post yesterday to comment on, which will hopefully give a more balanced view to readers.

NPC Newsletter No.102 (published yesterday) includes a very good article on this club's latest family meet on pages 10-12. These directly aimed at youngsters and are very successful. Other clubs do similar things - over the last few days alone I've corresponded with several people who confirmed that each of their clubs offer something along these lines. It's all done by volunteer effort, safely - and in a fun way.

I agree that your first sentence (above) applies to some clubs - but there is plenty of good practice going on. And some of these younger cavers are already "highly adept technical cavers".

Therefore I can't agree with your last sentence quoted above - although there's always room for further improvement of course.

I fully agree that the scout movement is an important part of this focus on young entrants to our pastime. The volunteers who run this excellent organisation are all heroes in my book. I got a lot from scouting as a youngster and, one day when I have more time, I intend to try and give something back myself.

Let's try and celebrate all the good things which the caving community does do for younger entrants, rather than becoming too morose about weaker areas. But let's try and improve on those as well. This is a useful discussion and it's good that you're flagging it up Chris.

 

[phil lilley]

We always do. Even the moat shy child wants to charge off when you ask him to lead.

 

[Pitlamp]

. . . or "her". 

Some of the young lasses are just as keen (and good) as the lads.

 

[2xw]

The problems i come up against is thr play station generation and cotton wool kids. Many of the kids i see dont go out climbing trees like we used to do as kids. Many sit on games consoles all day. Pare ts wrap them in cotton wool and dont allow them out.
  I have taken parents with their own kids caving and the oarents hold the childs hand and wont let go. Bare in mind some of the kids we take are 8-9 years old.

How did you go from scout caving is thriving to kids spending too long on games consoles?

I haven't had the same problem as you - I worked for 6 years both as a youth worker and as an outdoor pursuits instructor and I think most young people put into these environments will thrive - surely you've seen this with scouts? I think the key to this is ease of access as others have mentioned. Provide it and they will come!

Re video games, I'm sure there were Victorian gentlemen complaining about those bloody kids spending all day with a hoop and a stick, obsessed with hop scotch

 

[alastairgott]

How did you go from scout caving is thriving to kids spending too long on games consoles?

I guess it's more about their ability to complete simple climbs, coming prepared for the weather or just simply general fitness when walking on the surface.

You must have heard the story by Bill about a rescue of some kids who went into jug holes or Matlock area with Colander's on their heads and torches in their hands.

Most apologetic when they got rescued, but the team back in the day viewed it in the spirit of exploration. I guess Phil is saying this wouldn't happen with the fluffy kids he gets now.

 

[paul]

How did you go from scout caving is thriving to kids spending too long on games consoles?

I guess it's more about their ability to complete simple climbs, coming prepared for the weather or just simply general fitness when walking on the surface.

You must have heard the story by Bill about a rescue of some kids who went into jug holes or Matlock area with Colander's on their heads and torches in their hands.

Most apologetic when they got rescued, but the team back in the day viewed it in the spirit of exploration. I guess Phil is saying this wouldn't happen with the fluffy kids he gets now.

See Incident 284 on http://www.derbyshirecro.org.uk/call_outs.html

 

[badger]

think we need to put somethings into perspective, any youth organisation offering caving, the first thing is that they would need to be members of that organisation, you need to be a scout to be able to go caving with scouts.
Scouts is a great way for young people to get a taster of caving,  or young people caving with professional cavers and even freshers caving in uni.
its the next step where we probably fail, how do we bring those young people on who show a real interest to gain experience,
following what other countries do would seem not to be that easy in the uk,  they either have a very different view on young people and adults, or they have the same regulations as we have but choose to ignore them,
the uk also seems to have many caves with age restrictions which would be ideal the next step on the experience train. when you question the why, red tape seems to be the main reason, or the land owner does not want under 18's, for what reason, who knows.

 

[Ian P]

Just to add to Badgers post.
To take Scouts caving, a few boxes need ticking.

Caving falls into the ?Adventurous Activity? category and requires anybody running the activity to hold a ?Permit?

To gain a permit you must :- 

1. Be a member of The Scout Association
(?Activity instructor ? type roles are available. DBS checks etc will be carried out.

2. Understand Scout Association rules about child protection and all rules regarding caving and Scouts.

3. Approval of your ?Personal suitability?

4. ?Technical competency?
Scout caving falls into 3 main categories.

a)No vertical pitches
b)Ladder and lifeline for the group SRT for the leader
c) SRT for the group

The technical requirements for each category roughly follow the BCA Cave leader / Instructor scheme.
Holding a BCA award ticks the technical competency box to the level of that award.
Alternatively you can be assessed by a Scout assessor using a check list.
If you want to take Scouts on SRT trips you will need to be a CIC or assesesed to that level by a Scout assessor.

The check list. https://members.scouts.org.uk/documents/activities_factsheets/AC120946%20Assessment%20Checklist%20for%20Caving.doc

The above is achievable by suitably experienced people, you can then take Scouts caving as much as you like. (Following the rules about putting on activities for Scouts)

As previously mentioned, caving provision for Scouts varies from area to area. On caving events we put on for our County, sometimes leaders won?t even give out the information about it because they don?t like caving, even though they don?t have to go along with the Scouts.

If anyone wants to get involved, then please get intouch with your local Scout group and they can hopefully point you in the right direction or look up the Association of Scout caving teams.

I would much prefer the BCA to set up (and subsidise ??) a ?Young caver scheme? run in partnership with established centres who already have all the required infrastructure and expertise in place.

Taking under 18?s caving (parent / child type excepted) is going to require rules regulation and ?qualified? ?instructors?, whether Scouts or not. (Should it be any other way ??). There is no way to get away from this like it or not.

Ian

 

[RichardB1983]

You must have heard the story by Bill about a rescue of some kids who went into jug holes or Matlock area with Colander's on their heads and torches in their hands.

Most apologetic when they got rescued, but the team back in the day viewed it in the spirit of exploration. I guess Phil is saying this wouldn't happen with the fluffy kids he gets now.

See Incident 284 on http://www.derbyshirecro.org.uk/call_outs.html

That sort of thing is obviously still happening. About a year ago came across 2 lads (probably early 20s rather than kids) in Carlswark whose only equipment they had was a single mobile phone light between them - no helmets. Apparently they were climbers who regularly saw cavers parking up and decided to go and have a look... They decided to follow us out rather than go further as their mobile phone battery was starting to run low.

 

[Oceanrower]

Good. I admire their spirit.

If it wasn't for people like them then nobody would do anything, anywhere, ever.

And, deep down, we all know that we've done something equally stupid ourselves sometime...