Underground mishaps and other incidents...

[Alex]

I dont understand the point that his hand jammer was attatched to his cows tail?

Eh? hows that safe lol, I guess you learned your lesson there. I always use a seperate rope with a screw gate. I guess your method saves weight but at the very least it would slow you down as you would have to keep removing the hand jammer from the cows tail at every rebelay/pitch head?

As for chest jammer coming off that has happened to me but that was because I was at a funny angle.

 

[dunc]

Alkapton:

I cannot begin to understand how having your cowstails the "wrong way around" can possibly cause the series of events you describe, particularly your croll undoing itself because you "jerked".

I also find your "standard sort of [SRT] setup" somewhat odd.

However even with this I cannot make the series of events you describe happen.

Surely there was something else going on that you didn't realise at the time??

Glad I'm not the only one that found it somewhat puzzling..

 

[Alex]

Hmm just looked at the book and it does show hand jammer attached to the cows tail, how weird. Never noticed that before.

I think, however I will stick to my method, i.e. seperate rope attached to the mallon via screw crab. The method in alpine is probbably best for long expeditions where weight is really a premium. Though no one used that method in Dachstien that I know of.

Anyway we are off topic, keep the stories coming.

 

[Brains]

I'll chuck in another... Back in the day a friend went on a solo digging trip one evening. The dig is on the far side of a wooded valley, across a small river, and is essentially a long crawl through beddings, boulders and tubes to a too tight constriction. On the day it was wet and rainy, but undeterred all the kit was duly dragged to the dig face, holes drilled and rocks ready to break. In trying to squirm around and get some kit, my friend banged his lamp and killed the bulb. Not to worry, he carried a spare bulb in the headset. On finding his backup light lasted all of 3 seconds he proceeded to change the bulb by feel, and blew that as well... On reflection he decided to exit the cave by feel alone, abandoning the kit for another day. Being his dig, he knew it well and made it to the exit eventually. Now the fun began. In deepest Derbyshire in the dead of a moonless night in a wooded valley in the rain, he had to negotiate the climb down from the cave, cross the river an!
d climb the far side through cliffs and badger sets back to the car. Apparently when he finally opened the car the courtesy light blinded him, and his explanatory phone call to me for being late out was only qualified by our both realising he hadnt actually set a call out time with me or anybody else! BTW the rock was removed, and all kit retrieved, the offending lump gaving access to another 6 feet of flat out crawl to a too tight ongoing passage

 

[paul]

I posted this before, see http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=696.0 for more, so I hope you don't mind a little repetition..

I suppose my second most frightening experience was finding out we had missed the lock-in at the Hill Inn one Saturday night while camping in the car park as we walked down to Clapham after doing Lizard Pot after having got there too late the night before to get a drink.

The most frightening was in Lamb Leer in Mendip in the 70's. Me and a schoolmate had borrowed 3 25 foot ladders for the pitch from the platform in the big chamber and had a lifeline for that. We hadn't a rope for the entrance pitch as it was supposedly a fixed 70 foot or so iron ladder and we thought we'd be OK. Dave headed down the entrance pitch and soon returned ashen-faced as the "fixed" iron ladder was swaying back and forth to and from the wall and sections which were bolted together often had bolts loose or missing.

We decided to use the lifeline on the entrance pitch! Continuing on down all went well and we had a good trip exploring all the nooks and crannies. Dave re-ascended the 75 foot of electron ladders, no lifeline, remember, and I followed. At the top where the ladder was lying flat on a slope of rock I couldn't get onto the slope. After numereous attempts I realised my arms were giving out and decided I best go down QUICKLY! I climbed downwards as quick as I could but my arms were knackered and I had them wrapped around the back of the ladder with hands gripped together. Thinking I must be very near the bottom, I glanced down to see I was still 15 feet or so then fell off! Luckily I landed OK with my Oldhams battery taking most of the shock and I was just winded.

Dave heard the crash and assumed I had fallen a long way as I had climbed down so quickly he thought I couldn't have gone very far. After a good rest I managed it the second time. Phew.

 

[Fulk]

Sit harnes is the cheapest Petzl one, its OK but one day I'll get a better one.    Cowstails are fig. 8 to attach to D ring and barrel knot to attach a krab.  Hand jammer is Petzl Croll and chest jammer is Petzl Croll Basic, attached to D via a mallion and attached to chest harness via a delta mallion.  Other stuff on D is breaking krab and a spare mallion used as a spanner to undo D ring, but that is well out of the way as it needs to be to function as a spanner.    At the time my foot loop was 1" tape webbing tied directly to hand jammer running through a mallion on the D ring, krab from long cowstail into hand jammer.  So its a standard sort of set up.  I wasn't wearing the Petzl Stop.

Well, each to his own, and one?s SRT rig is to an extent personal . . . there?s no right and wrong, there?s just what suits you, so it?s all a bit subjective.

However, this does not strike me as a ?standard sort of set up?. It strikes me as a bastardized form of  the standard Frog System. I have the cheapest Petzl harness, and have no intention of changing it ? it serves me well.

Hand jammer ? well, I don?t doubt that a Croll would work as a foot-loop jammer, but it is designed specifically as a chest jammer.

?chest jammer is Petzl Croll Basic, attached to D via a mallion?. The point of the Croll is that, on account of its twisted bottom hole, it?s designed to lie flat against the chest when put straight on the central maillon rapide, and to use an extra maillon is, to my way of thinking, perverse ? not only could it cause the Croll to lie at the wrong angle, it could also introduces extra length, when what you want is a low-lying chest jammer.

One-inch webbing for foot loops has been discretided yeas ago, on account of the possibility of its getting jammed up in the Croll . . . and why on Earth was it running through an MR on the D ring?

I?m sorry, Alkapton, I don?t want to sound patronizing ? but in view of the ?incident? that you endured, I think that it would be a good idea if you rethought your whole rope-climbing system ? as Alex says (or, at least, implies) have a safety cord to your hand jammer and two entirely independent cow?s tails.

 

[shotlighter]

I'll chuck in another... Back in the day a friend went on a solo digging trip one evening. The dig is on the far side of a wooded valley, across a small river, and is essentially a long crawl through beddings, boulders and tubes to a too tight constriction. On the day it was wet and rainy, but undeterred all the kit was duly dragged to the dig face, holes drilled and rocks ready to break. In trying to squirm around and get some kit, my friend banged his lamp and killed the bulb. Not to worry, he carried a spare bulb in the headset. On finding his backup light lasted all of 3 seconds he proceeded to change the bulb by feel, and blew that as well... On reflection he decided to exit the cave by feel alone, abandoning the kit for another day. Being his dig, he knew it well and made it to the exit eventually. Now the fun began. In deepest Derbyshire in the dead of a moonless night in a wooded valley in the rain, he had to negotiate the climb down from the cave, cross the river an!
d climb the far side through cliffs and badger sets back to the car. Apparently when he finally opened the car the courtesy light blinded him, and his explanatory phone call to me for being late out was only qualified by our both realising he hadnt actually set a call out time with me or anybody else! BTW the rock was removed, and all kit retrieved, the offending lump gaving access to another 6 feet of flat out crawl to a too tight ongoing passage

Hmm that brings back a few memories!
The scene of one or two near misses!!

 

[Brains]

I seem to recall somebody corking the squeeze with several of us on the inside wondering how to un block the hole, which is probably still less than a wellie boot high in the middle... udging and thrutching is an almost lost art!

 

[cap n chris]

Alkapton:

I cannot begin to understand how having your cowstails the "wrong way around" can possibly cause the series of events you describe

Could really benefit from a sketch/photograph of the SRT layout.

 

[Alkapton]

Hand jammer ? well, I don?t doubt that a Croll would work as a foot-loop jammer, but it is designed specifically as a chest jammer.

How dull am I?  of course I got the names the wrong way around,  I don't wear them the wrong way around, I just called the Croll a basic in the post above.

One-inch webbing for foot loops has been discretided yeas ago, on account of the possibility of its getting jammed up in the Croll . . . and why on Earth was it running through an MR on the D ring?

Don't understand how it can get jammed in the croll, and now I don't use a home made footloop but a proper Petzl one, even if one person teased me for spending ?20 on a "dog lead".   
But I am taking on the point of not running it through a mallion, I've always done that, nobody has ever picked me up on it, but thinking about it all the super fast people don't do that, and maybe nobody at all does that.   

I'm too hurried to look for other quotes but....
After 3 years good use my sit harness is getting near the end of its days, I want something more comfortable for horizontal caving and something harder wearing.

Croll goes on D ring via a mallion because that might not be efficient but it is comfortable.  The only reason for wearing croll as low as possible is to let you climb up as much as possible on a single stand up.  When I'm comfortable I'm faster than when I am not.  Also it means I can take off the chest harness without completely undoing the sit harness.

I've thought hard about having a third cowstail but at end of day it would be more hassle than benefit.  Hauling would be easier, horizontal cavng harder because just another thing to get snagged in a tight place.

I do a fair bit of SRT above and below ground,  my set up is always the same.  Only once have I ever reversed the order of my cowstails and only on that occaision has something bad happened.    It happened as I'd almost finished standing up so the rope was still travelling down the croll so the croll was loose on the rope,  I'm trying to stand on two legs, the left foot holds because thats the Pantin, the right collapses because the footloop failed, so I guess I jerked sideways just as croll is opening to let the rope pass,  thats why one must always have a cowstail or safty cord on the Basic.
Never before or since have I noticed any wear on my footloop after a days caving or practicing. 

 

[Brains]

OK, another SRT related one - on a trip to Sell Gill with some newer people, I had to check their harnesses etc on the surface prior to descending. Everything was OK and going down the dry route went well with the training paying off well. On reaching the bottom of the first decent pitch I found a hand jammer and footloop/safety cord - booty thought I! Er, hang on a tick - thats just like mine, oh! It is mine!
:-[ My main D was open and it had fallen off during the descent, I had been so busy helping others gear up and checking them I had become distracted and failed to check my own harness  :-[
Luckily it was only embaressing and not painful, the lesson being to gear up yourself before or after being distracted, not in the middle of...

 

[Amy]

HOLYCRAP is that lucky. I've seen D rings (we say halfrounds) totally warped and bent out of place due to even as bad as not tightening it all the way! Much less being *open*. Hopfully you've replaced your halfround by now lol, I hear that sort of wear even if it doesn't break or warp it really weakens it.

 

[simonsays]

Same place... Sell Gill...... I was stood waiting for my turn to descend the second pitch when my foot nudged a rock. It rolled,  bouncing from boulder to boulder whilst accelerating toward the pitch head. My screams of 'below' could probably have been heard in the next county. When it hit the bottom of the pitch the sound was like a cannon going off.

There was a wait of about three seconds (it felt like a lifetime) before I heard a remarkably calm voice from 40 feet below

'missed'


This was without doubt the stupidest thing I have ever done, above or below ground. Just thinking about what I might have been responsible for gives me nightmares

 

[cap n chris]

My main D was open ...

Cue for Mr. Biff of MCG to regale one and all with his tale of unplanned derring do while in Espana.....

 

[Amy]

Oooh that is interesting...so there "Below" is yelled, not "Rock"? That is good to know that difference in standard. Otherwise "Below" would just confuse me I might not pay attention to it. Here, "ROCK!" is yelled for anything falling (rock or otherwise, usually rocks of course, but holds for anything).

 

[Fulk]

Talking of falling rocks, Simon, reminds me of the following incident:
We decided to do GB on a very wet day, where I would set up a picture of someone abbing down the waterfall that I'd had in mind for some time. Accordingly I took the big Mecablitz flashgun plus the two small ones, and, after a trip down to the sump ? in much drier conditions than I had envisaged ? we set up the shot on the way back up the passage with the big gun at the bottom and Jack wielding a small one at the top. And then, disaster struck . . . 'BELOWWW' came a cry from Miranda; we at the bottom ? Charlotte with the big gun, me with the camera, and Dave, Tim and Matt looking on ? looked up to see a stone rather bigger than a rugby ball boulder heading our way. As is often said to be the case, the scene appeared to unfold in slow motion, and we seemed to have plenty of time ? ?This way and that, dividing the swift mind in act to jump?! The rock then hit a ledge and splintered into fragments, which came flying down like shrapnel from a hand grenade, and this prompted us to get out of the way pronto ? or at least try to! In the event, only one of us got hit. Poor Charlotte was hit on the hand and the thigh as the fragment ricocheted on its way, leaving her duly shaken, but not badly injured. Unfortunately, the flashgun flew off into the stream, where it shattered, and the battery compartment was lost. So Tim and I escorted Charlotte out, while the rest continued with their trip. So, a very short trip, but thankfully, nothing worse than a broken flashgun and slave unit (though it was the very expensive flashgun!).
The odd thing was how slowly events seemed to unfold ? we at the bottom all agreed on that point, while Miranda wondered what the hell we were waiting for!
Amy ? I prefer the US style of shouting 'Rock' for anything that goes down a pitch by accident . . . 'Below' is, as you intimate, open to misunderstanding. I once heard a story (true or apocryphal, I can't say) of a guy down the Berger who looked up when someone shouted 'Below' ? and got a face-full of pulley. 

 

[cap n chris]

If you drop a bag down a pitch by mistake isn't shouting "Rock" confusing and inappropriate, though?

 

[ogof addict]

a nice sunday afternoon trip taking a few new people to see the Trident and Judge in OFD top, bog standard route, nothing i havent done many times before. the obligatory photos were taken and we had a bit of a chat near the Trident before heading out. I'd been keeping myself amused by planning out where i'd go after the novice trip, so the other person on the trip who knew the way could go back to swcc and put back my callout. after everyone finished their picnics we got ready to head back, when the other experienced person managed to trip over an "invisible stal" and looked like a cartoon character falling over, landing nicely on a soft flat bit where there are no stals, water or anything nasty 

during the return journey, i had decided i was hungover (it was dinner meet weekend after all) and it really wasnt wise to go back to my planned route, which everybody else had said "no f****ing chance!" to, so i decided to go out with everybody else.  i was even sensible and did the corkscrew the normal route and not the tight route . as we were heading up the slope about the corkscrew, a bunch of cavers that had a sort or fresher look about them were heading down. this was the point where my friends had left a banana skin on the rocks, which being invisible, i didnt see, and my feet went straight out from under me and instead of a nice flat soft landing, i landed on my thigh on one of those nice polished lumps of rock. i dont know what was worse, the embarrassment or the bruise that developed to be about the size of my hand, and it came up in a big lump. the bruise from the daren entrance crawl the day before with no knee pads was about the size of a 5p.

it did make me think. you can do yourself some pretty nasty injuries on the easiest of caving trips, i was lucky it was only a bruise and getting laughed at. and maybe something to make you think about what you are doing and not let your mind wander can be no bad thing?

my worst pains have been caused by caver games rather than caving, fortunately

 

[Les W]

If you drop a bag down a pitch by mistake isn't shouting "Rock" confusing and inappropriate, though?

I don't think it matters what you shout providing everybody knows what it means!

In the UK "Below" is the traditional shout, borrowed from the climbing community I think. Everybody knows what it means and that is the most important thing. As an international caver I also know that "Rock" means the same.

To be honest, if I am on or below a pitch and I hear anything being shouted, then I duck and try and make myself very small (quite an achievement for me... :tease better to look sillly than flat...

 

[Alex]

OK, another SRT related one - on a trip to Sell Gill with some newer people, I had to check their harnesses etc on the surface prior to descending. Everything was OK and going down the dry route went well with the training paying off well. On reaching the bottom of the first decent pitch I found a hand jammer and footloop/safety cord - booty thought I! Er, hang on a tick - thats just like mine, oh! It is mine!
  My main D was open and it had fallen off during the descent, I had been so busy helping others gear up and checking them I had become distracted and failed to check my own harness 
Luckily it was only embaressing and not painful, the lesson being to gear up yourself before or after being distracted, not in the middle of...

That exact same thing happened to me only I did it on Titan I descended the whole darn thing with my D-ring undone, like you I found a hand jammer at the bottom and thought, hmm that looks like mine, it was, presumbly it fell off after I used it as an extra leg hold at the rebelay. For me I blame the heavy drinking the night before, I was ill and probbably should not have gone caving that day.

It was this trip where I got my reputation of dropping things from.

Speaking of dropping things one of my mates is just as unlucky, he has dropped his bag with all his camera gear not once but twice. Once down a 100m pitch in Austriaand  once from the top of Rowton. Both times the camera survided, though his flash guns where you guessed it totally destroyed.